nic mcs pv installers

[Neil Pittam]

i am a qualified electrician and solar pv installer my governing body is NIC and im mcs
after completing a job today in torbay building control informed me that the nic is not part of the cps competent persons scheme alarmed i phoned NIC and after 6 different personnel i was spoken to by a person higher up than your average electrically competent person.I
spent thousands of pounds getting through my mcs and all the necessary things to what i thought would be signing off my own work .HOW WRONG WAS I.The high rachi nic person said no you are not able to sign off your own work as you are NOT A STRUCTUAL ENGINEER so yes i can sign it off electrically as part p and yes i can get the feed in tarriff from the MCS but I STILL NEED BUILDING CONTROL IN TO SIGN IT OFF STRUCTUALLY.....So after spending thousands off pounds on the hardest scheme ive ever tried to get on then going through NIC considered the best and paying them a grand for 2 visits due to install being 100 miles away from office i get the all important news ive passed and think i can go recoup the thousands already spent i find that someone else wants a bit more money to sign job off or yes you guessed it have another course to go with asbestos awareness real assurance working at heights manual handling
health and safety cscs card nic registration mcs registration solar pv installer course
public liabilty NOW I HAVE TO BE A STUCTUAL ENGINEER.THANKS GREAT BRITAIN FOR MAKING NIGH ON IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A LIVING BECAUSE OF PARASITES LIVING OFF THE BACK OF AN OLD SCHOOL DO IT LIKE IT SHOULD BE DONE ELECTRICIAN.we all know this countries gone mad but us good old brits take it on the chin.as much aS I HATE THE FRENCH THEY WOULDN,T PUT UP WITH THIS AND SO SHOULDN,T WE COME ON GUYS A NATIONAL STRIKE TO GET THESE PARASITES OFF OF OUR BACKS SO WE CAN EARN OUR OWN LIVING NOT EARN THERES AS WELL....IVE HAD A REALLY BAD DAY.

 

[Worcester]

That's an interesting response from BC, as I am a Chartered Civil and Structural Engineer (3 year uni, 5 years post Uni qualification experience, then horrendous exams, professional interview, continous education - about £60k investment) on top of that we employ structural engineers on EVERY single roof for the calcs and Certified Competent Persons (part P etc) on the Electrical Side who sign off the electrics.

Maybe that's why we haven't had any problems from any Building Control department at all...

Not parasites, things need to be done properly though. Even more reason for a proper business plan before you make any investment in a new business.

 

[BruceB]

Unless it is a new build or building control are involved for some other reason then they simply should not be involved in issuing the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate. If you are MCS registered then you do the work, you notify your registration body (in my case NAPIT), they notify the relevant Building Control Body (in NAPIT's case in bulk the following Saturday), then NAPIT issues the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate direct to the customer. So Building Control are not normally in the loop and would have to take some positive action to put a spanner in the works if they felt so inclined. That would cost them time and money.

The way the legislation is written, if you are MCS registered with one of the bodies listed then you are exempt from the requirement to submit a building notice and can self certify. I believe the central LABC body has issued guidance within the last week or 2 to Building Control Bodies telling them this (but I was not allowed to see it). Napit stated in their e-news yesterday that they would put a copy of that guidance up in the member download area, but the link does not work yet.

Just speculating, but I would not be surprised if going forward the MCS assessment includes a check of whether you are competent to assess structures, like in Worcester's case, or you always get a specialist opinion, like in SRE's case. From my own perspective, although I am a chartered electrical engineer I did do 'Structures' as one of my first year university papers so would like to be able to dust off my tables and do the calcs myself!

Regards
Bruce

 

[SRE]

i am a qualified electrician and solar pv installer my governing body is NIC and im mcs
after completing a job today in torbay building control informed me that the nic is not part of the cps competent persons scheme alarmed i phoned NIC and after 6 different personnel i was spoken to by a person higher up than your average electrically competent person.I
spent thousands of pounds getting through my mcs and all the necessary things to what i thought would be signing off my own work .HOW WRONG WAS I.The high rachi nic person said no you are not able to sign off your own work as you are NOT A STRUCTUAL ENGINEER so yes i can sign it off electrically as part p and yes i can get the feed in tarriff from the MCS but I STILL NEED BUILDING CONTROL IN TO SIGN IT OFF STRUCTUALLY.....So after spending thousands off pounds on the hardest scheme ive ever tried to get on then going through NIC considered the best and paying them a grand for 2 visits due to install being 100 miles away from office i get the all important news ive passed and think i can go recoup the thousands already spent i find that someone else wants a bit more money to sign job off or yes you guessed it have another course to go with asbestos awareness real assurance working at heights manual handling
health and safety cscs card nic registration mcs registration solar pv installer course
public liabilty NOW I HAVE TO BE A STUCTUAL ENGINEER.THANKS GREAT BRITAIN FOR MAKING NIGH ON IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A LIVING BECAUSE OF PARASITES LIVING OFF THE BACK OF AN OLD SCHOOL DO IT LIKE IT SHOULD BE DONE ELECTRICIAN.we all know this countries gone mad but us good old brits take it on the chin.as much aS I HATE THE FRENCH THEY WOULDN,T PUT UP WITH THIS AND SO SHOULDN,T WE COME ON GUYS A NATIONAL STRIKE TO GET THESE PARASITES OFF OF OUR BACKS SO WE CAN EARN OUR OWN LIVING NOT EARN THERES AS WELL....IVE HAD A REALLY BAD DAY.

I'm frustrated with this but from a different perspective - we do the structural stuff anyway - always have done, it's a requirement of MCS and just because a huge number of other installers don't do it doesn't mean you can get away with it BUT it infuriates me that the structural calcs (over which we're given no guidance) are then challenged by BC officers who don't know how to do the themselves - more cost to the customer.

I know it's hard when you've started and all you see is more money going out of the door day after day but if you can get through the initial costs think about this - last week I got 2 jobs because we use a local structural engineer to check the roofs. We don't refund the cost of the survey if the customer doesn't go ahead and once we've explained why to our customers they are fine. Both customers had been about to sign at a cheaper price with national companies. They both thought our service was more professional. One has already recommended us to a friend - well worth involving the structural engineer.....

It's not worth cutting corners, grit your teeth, get through the pain barrier - I remember it well - you've a bit to go yet and it will pay dividends - customers like a professional job done - it's a great selling point.

 

[BruceB]

torbay building control informed me that the nic is not part of the cps competent persons scheme alarmed i phoned NIC .......

That seemed odd, but astonishingly, NICEIC are not on the list of people at serial 17 of Schedule 3:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/schedule/3/made

So if you are MCS registered through them you still have to submit a building notice - unless there has been an amendment to that list?????

Regards
Bruce

 

[SRE]

NICEIC are part of the Ascertiva group - first on the list - don't panic Pike!

 

[hasel5]

Thought the niceic are the Ascertiva Group Limited

 

[BruceB]

I stand corrected - not being part of that Club I had not realised they operated under that name.

But it might explain the OP's assertion that Torbay Building Control thought NIC was not part of a MCS CPS!

Regards
Bruce

 

[BruceB]

Here is the recently issued guidance to Building Control Bodies.
If you are MCS registered you can self certify - mostly.
But you had better get your head around the structural stuff or get an expert report!
Regards
Bruce

 

[hasel5]

I stand corrected - not being part of that Club I had not realised they operated under that name.

But it might explain the OP's assertion that Torbay Building Control thought NIC was not part of a MCS CPS!

Regards
Bruce

Had me thinking that one to and I am part of the so called club lol

 

[SRE]

Following on from this I've just had the same document sent to me from our local Building Control. They haven't had a response from NICEIC yet, as ever the buck is still being passed. Our BC guy has asked me for feedback on the Best Practice Guide but as it stands they expect BC notification for every pv installation on domestic properties.

They are taking a "light touch" approach, meaning that as long as they have a letter from a structural engineer they don't need specific calculations but do need a BC application. If alterations need to be made to the structure then a BC application and details from the structural engineer need to be sent through but it all comes under the lowest fee for BC.

They don't think that there is a CPS for Part A which is where the issues is. Does anyone know of one????

 

[BruceB]

I suggest your local building control is out of order, provided you are a member of an appropriate scheme. The legislation and the guidance is quite clear - no building notice is required and you can self certify.

The note gets a little confused. At the beginning it says membership of MCS is not a Competent Person Scheme, but then for the rest of the document they speak of competent person schemes. Membership of NAPIT, NIC and others as the route to MCS accreditation most certainly is membership of a UCAS accredited competent person scheme.

To answer to your last question, in my view:
- de facto, membership of NAPIT/NIC etc for MCS is membership of a Part A competent persons scheme because you are required to assess the structural side and can self certify it.
- Building Control Bodies do not have a monopoly on Part A, if you commission an independent approved building inspector they can certify the whole lot for you.

Your BCB will come around - they are just having trouble admitting they were wrong.

Regards
Bruce

 

[SRE]

If you look at the start of this post someone has checked with NICEIC and they have confirmed that CPS only covers Part P. BC's argument is that there isn't a scheme for CPS for Part A therefore it needs a structural engineer to look at it - we do that anyway - but it then needs a Building notice because it's regarded as a structural alteration which needs notification. In the absence of a formal CPS scheme for Part A, the Building Notice has to be completed.

I'm not saying I agree, but that's the stand the whole county is now taking in light of the guidance from LABC.

 

[BruceB]

If NIC continue to take that position they will shoot themselves in both feet.

I am not saying you should not have a structural engineer involved to discharge your responsibilities properly. But I am saying that as the legislation stands no building notice is required, so building control are not in the loop. Certainly NAPIT think their scheme covers the structural side as well. I had to show calculations for wind loading etc. The Building Control Compliance Certificates at the end of the solar PV jobs are issued by NAPIT in my case direct to the customer. So they have what they need to sell their house or fend off Building Control.

This may be a question of, "Be careful what you wish for , because you may get it." It might be that the schemes feel they have to more overtly assess competence on this aspect in future.

I think this has a bit to run!

Regards
Bruce

 

[funboy57]

Agreed BruceB this has a fair bit to run, so next year Mr MCS inspector asks where's your structural report, calcs etc for every job! So are we supposed to provide that as a maybe ( quote)? I offer it but at extra cost, no one takes it up. Yes I can do wind calcs etc but I dont have Professional Indemnity doubt if I could Im not a structural engineer. Obiviously if the structure of the roof looks iffy I would insist, but if your pricing against a 3.9 kwP for 10k how can you afford it. How do you get peeps to pay for it when no other company before or after has even raised the issue. How come BC are raising this issue now ?

 

[SRE]

That was our argument with BC, if everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet I wouldn't mind but they obviously aren't. Strangley enough we won 2 jobs last week because we use a structural engineer but we also lost one to a national who never use them and were cheaper as a result.

 

[Worcester]

As I've said many a time, we do structural calcs on every job, always have done, always will. It actually gives the customer confidence when doing the survey and shows you know what you're doing. And you can use this to put youself one ahead of the rest.

One interesting comment could put an end to using the click-fit mounting system

fixing to tiling battens is not considered a suitably robust solution

Buy whom? I have the BRE tests and certificates for it and the panels pulled off the rails before the mounting system yielded! That'll be an interesting debate..

 

[SRE]

I saw that too - I'm not keen on it anyway but loads of the nationals use it - that's why they take half a day to install 4kwp and we take a day.

 

[Worcester]

Just got this in writing from NAPIT

Members of the MCS via NAPIT are automatically deemed competent under rows 17 and 20 of Schedule 3. There is a lot of confusion with Building Control at the moment because some MCS certification bodies don’t use the competence evidence to approve installers under the Building Regulations even when they can, and some are suggesting they exclude structure.

DCLG agreed that NAPIT have got this right and that notification through NAPIT’s system is all that is required for self-certification. LABC have provided guidance which is available on the member downloads but which is still not fully clear. One problem is that some members assume that because they can self-certify their opinion about whether a structural survey is needed cannot be challenged. The guide issued by LABC is not bad for judging when a survey is required. If you then have the survey carried out the LA may wish to confirm it, if you don’t have the survey carried out they have every right to demand one.

It is our belief that no scheme should be allowing approval under row 17 without covering structure and no scheme could possible certificate a company under MCS without assessing how the installer deals with structure. This also appears to be the view of government and UKAS

So one has to question the wether what is rumoured about the NICEIC approach is wrong, or NICEIC themselves have got it wrong...

 

[SRE]

Gordon can you clarify something for me, because I'm getting more confused by the minute! Our 6 BC's covering our county are saying that there is no CPS for Part A how does this relate to row and 17 and 20 of schedule 3? If Napit is covering it how is it different to what NICEIC are doing? As far as the trainers are concerned 2399 (might have made that number up but you know what I mean) doesn't cover structure so what does the Napit assessment require you to do to compensate for that???

One of our council leaders issued a press release last week calling for a registration scheme for solar installers - my email to him was suitably acidic, I'm still waiting for a response .... it was his council that kicked off all this hassle with BC.