No earth in lighting circuit what next?

[Andy78]

How about this:
You get a call, the guy installing the new smart meter has told someone their old Wylex 3063 fuse box is illegal and they need a new Fuse box.
Not an RCD in sight, no CPC on either lighting circuit and they have a brass 5 lamp chandelier thing in the living with a brass Heritage rope edged light switch, a couple of metal fluorescent light fittings in the kitchen and a chrome shaver socket in the bathroom.
They don’t want the place re-wired, they don’t want to replace the metal fittings with plastic, they just want a new fuse box.
Do you replace the CU and provide RCD protection for all their circuits, or do you walk away hoping nothing will go wrong?

Walk away having issued danger notice. Done it plenty of times.

 

[peterhyper]

If it was the situation you describe I would correct the fault at my own cost. The way I work I include for a full day's labour with every CU change, so if there are faults that fit into that timescale it's materials only.
I have never been in that situation yet though as I go into a CU change as informed as I can be. If a customer doesn't like the sound of possible remedial work at an agreed rate I would insist on an EICR or not do the job. Neither of those has ever been necessary though.
I have had plenty jobs with unexpected little bits, but none that have gone into a second chargeable day that I can recall.

Do make your customers aware that you include a full days labour in your charges, and if no additional work is required, do you then refund them for the day's labour you charged them for but haven't actually done?

 

[Baddegg]

Do make your customers aware that you include a full days labour in your charges, and if no additional work is required, do you then refund them for the day's labour you charged them for but haven't actually done?

Think he means a full day including the Cu change Peter....

 

[Nebu1a]

On the initial site visit for the estimate drop off one switch, check for bonding etc.. On the day carry out your tests before removing the old fuse-box and probe all metal fittings with the wander lead. If you get any dubious readings or low IRs bring to the customer's attention before commencing. Have a separate price for the testing on the estimate and if necessary walk.

 

[Nebu1a]

The trouble with relying on an RCD to provide protection when there is no CPC is that people never test them. Just the other day I replaced a socket for a customer carried out an RCD test and got over 310ms. Customer had never tested it. Luckily after a manual test it came unstuck and was working within correct tripping times.

 

[Elliott96]

On the initial site visit for the estimate drop off one switch, check for bonding etc.. On the day carry out your tests before removing the old fuse-box and probe all metal fittings with the wander lead. If you get any dubious readings or low IRs bring to the customer's attention before commencing. Have a separate price for the testing on the estimate and if necessary walk.

So charge them for taking a few R2’s and if there not happy then dont do the job? How much are you charging for the “pre fuseboard” checks?

 

[Nebu1a]

Before removing the old fuse box I carry out RFC continuity, protective conductor continuity, IR, Ze and Zs.If there is no continuity I will allow an hour for some basic fault finding too. I dont want to loose a days money by walking but at the same time I dont want the client phoning me at 2am to say the RCD keeps tripping. Read Electrical Safety best practice guide.

 

[magnoliafan89]

Surely a quick pre board change R1+R2 of the lighting circuit would have picked this up??

 

[Markyd]

doing a cu change on tuesday....went there yesterday to have A LOOK......removed a few switches up and down...removed a few light fittings and roses up and down.....no c.p.c.....took half an hour...where is the problem in a few simple checks before you change the board

 

[AJshep]

The guidance all state that we should rectify a dangerous circuit before reconnecting to a new CU.
However you have made the installation safer as you have provided additional RCD protection, if it were to go to court you could argue this, and you would have a strong case.
I would offer to fit class 2 fittings for free, if the customer does not go for this then I would write a letter explaining the dangers and get a signature.

 

[chris gray]

If you changed my cu and then tried to get me to sign anything saying it was dangerous, I’d tell you to whistle.

 

[Nebu1a]

How many light fittings are you talking about?
Legally you cant cut the lighting circuit out as we dont have the same powers as Gas Safe. All you can do is explain the dangers to the client and offer to replace the fittings with plastic pendants or similar for no charge.
I cant see how you can provide an EIC with all the tick boxes on the inspection section.

 

[ruston]

Always-132.16 Whatever it takes.

 

[chris gray]

There’s no way you should even be in a position where you’re asking others what they’d do in this situation. It simply shouldn’t arise

 

[Nebu1a]

Live and learn and try not to loose sleep over it.

 

[AJshep]

If you changed my cu and then tried to get me to sign anything saying it was dangerous, I’d tell you to whistle.

Well it's the situation the OP has put themself in.
It is safer than it was, it now has RCD protection, although he shouldnt have connected this into the new CU, there is always that argument against a non-statuary document.

 

[DPG]

Brave man who uses the 'non statutory' argument in court.

 

[AJshep]

Brave man who uses the 'non statutory' argument in court.

Very, although I wouldn't put myself in that situation.

 

[westward10]

I assume from the info this is domestic and hence the EAWR 1989 do not apply if they did you have no defence in a court of law as provision for earthing is an absolute regulation. The argument rcd protection has made it safer is a weak argument as you cannot rely on such a device due to the absence of an earth because the requirements of ADS are not met.

 

[AJshep]

The point Im making is.
Is it safer ?
I know its wrong but is it safer on a mcb with RCD protection or a BS3036 with no RCD protection ?