No earthing on lighting circuit

[KevinH]

Hi all, I've been asked to make an old 4 story townhouse "safe" and issue cert for renting out.
Hasn't been touched for so long it has bakerlite accessories with wood backing!
Straight away I'm seeing replace all accessories, replace CU, upgrade earthing. The wiring is all in PVC cables but typical no earthing on lighting circuits.
I hear you all scream "REWIRE"!
Problem is property is highly decorated and furnished and owners would rather not go down that route.
My question is, if I fit all plastic accessories throughout, and clearly state on CU and cert NOT to fit any metallic fittings. Can I get away with that?
Just asking as whenever I've come across this problem in past, I've always rewired lighting so bit unsure what complies.
By the way, I've done quick IR, ring loop tests, Ze etc and all ok, but how do you R1+R2 lighting with no earth?

 

[telectrix]

you can do that, but obviously no R1+R2 on lights, and ensure that all switch faceplate screws are either into nylon lugs or covered with some form of insulating material. ( the plastic push in caps would probably suffice).

 

[ferg]

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/1203/best-practice-guide-1-issue-3.pdf

In there are your options.

 

[Pete999]

Hi all, I've been asked to make an old 4 story townhouse "safe" and issue cert for renting out.
Hasn't been touched for so long it has bakerlite accessories with wood backing!
Straight away I'm seeing replace all accessories, replace CU, upgrade earthing. The wiring is all in PVC cables but typical no earthing on lighting circuits.
I hear you all scream "REWIRE"!
Problem is property is highly decorated and furnished and owners would rather not go down that route.
My question is, if I fit all plastic accessories throughout, and clearly state on CU and cert NOT to fit any metallic fittings. Can I get away with that?
Just asking as whenever I've come across this problem in past, I've always rewired lighting so bit unsure what complies.
By the way, I've done quick IR, ring loop tests, Ze etc and all ok, but how do you R1+R2 lighting with no earth?

When you say the LL asked you to make safe, I feel your only option would be to carry out an EICR report your findings on an EICR Certificate and pass it to the Landlord, not done anything with rental properties, but I think there are special arrangement for certifying Rental Properties, there will be other Electricians on this forum who do this sort of thing as their main service, if you're not desperate hang on till one picks up on this post.

 

[Pete999]

When you say the LL asked you to make safe, I feel your only option would be to carry out an EICR report your findings on an EICR Certificate and pass it to the Landlord, not done anything with rental properties, but I think there are special arrangement for certifying Rental Properties, there will be other Electricians on this forum who do this sort of thing as their main service, if you're not desperate hang on till one picks up on this post.

Ferg has sent you a good starting point.

 

[Andy78]

I'm not a fan of the class 2 and label bodge. I would recommend a rewire every time and have walked away from some that don't want to.

 

[telectrix]

could always convert lighting to gas... .

 

[Pete999]

could always convert lighting to gas... .

Need to know if the Gas has been bonded then Tel

 

[telectrix]

damn. so my granddad ain't got his lamp lighting job back. he's turning in his grave ( that disturbed earth bottom the garden where my grandma put him and got his pension for 25 years before the dwp twigged).

 

[Risteard]

how do you R1+R2 lighting with no earth?

Obviously you can't as there is no R2 to measure.

 

[Risteard]

I'm not a fan of the class 2 and label bodge. I would recommend a rewire every time and have walked away from some that don't want to.

Indeed such an approach is not actually recognised by BS7671 - I bet no-one can find the wording of any such label within any Edition of the Wiring Regulations.

 

[westward10]

We don't touch jobs like this, rectify or walk away. I am also of the belief a plastic light switch is not double insulated even with non conductive fixing screws, it is a plastic light switch.

 

[Nigel]

Common sense needs to prevail. To say to a customer it is either complete re-wire and thousands of pounds worth of decorating or nothing is a little silly in my book.

There is nothing wrong with fitting plastic accessories. Remember you are not changing the circuit so you do not have to bring it up to current Standards. That said if there is nothing wrong with the existing switxhes why change them at all?

When wired it was completely acceptable to install plastic accessories and not have an earth on the circuit. If an EICR was carries out today with only plastic fittings installed it would only warrent a C3 so that in itself suggests it is not dangerous.

 

[westward10]

Bakelite accessories on wooden back boxes, I am walking away unless they opt for rewiring.

 

[Andy78]

Here's an interesting addition. I re-read the ESC best practice guide on consumer unit changes prompted by this thread. Section 10 deals with situations where lighting circuits have no cpc.

 

[westward10]

Are accessories double insulated, no they have exposed terminals to the rear of them.

 

[Nigel]

Here's an interesting addition. I re-read the ESC best practice guide on consumer unit changes prompted by this thread. Section 10 deals with situations where lighting circuits have no cpc.

View attachment 47181

Not sure what the relevance is unless the op was suggesting a re-wire with no cpc.

 

[Andy78]

Not sure what the relevance is unless the op was suggesting a re-wire with no cpc.

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure of the relevance either, but I took it to suggest that the method of using class 2 accessories, mentioned in the same section, should not be employed in a domestic situation. Otherwise what would be the point of putting it in the guide to consumer unit changes ?

If we are to ascertain that all existing equipment is safe for the alteration before work commences (132.6),
and if 412.1.3 deems that the method of double insulation is not to employed in a domestic situation, then we cannot fulfil our obligation to the requirements of 132.16 if it is employed.

 

[Ian1981]

Interesting points from both sides of the argument but I can’t see how you can class something as potentially dangerous if plastic accessories are fitted throughout the lighting circuit(s).
On the other hand an unearthed back box tho not necessarily accessible to touch could become live through breakdown of the insulation and if the homeowner was to decorate the wall then the added influence of water could have dire consequences.
Yet as stated there’s no law to say an installation must be upgraded to current standards.
The obvious problems start when we alter the circuit and installation and we need to comply with 132.16.
What I do know is, it does seem to be an acceptable practice in the industry to label the DB and have only plastic accessories throughout the circuit
Think I need a lie down

 

[Ian1981]

Indeed such an approach is not actually recognised by BS7671 - I bet no-one can find the wording of any such label within any Edition of the Wiring Regulations.

There’s a requirement to provide labelling at the DB for circuits with high protective conductor currents but no such label exists in bs7671 so it’s a similar situation label wise I mean.
The label for protective currents above 10mA is required by bs7671 in section 543 and is mentioned so perhaps that is indeed the big difference between the 2.
Often labels required are not actually in the wiring regulations themselves.