This is an issue that is starting to get more of a ball ache for me, when theres a smart meter installed without an isolator and I really need to cut the power (CU change for example). My question really is this, has anyone here, or any of your customers been fined/reprimanded/imprisioned/threatened in any after a smart meter has alerted the provider that powers been cut, due to pulling the main fuse ? I ask now because im looking at ever increasing jobs now where the fuse really needs to be pulled and im becoming reluctant to do it; trying to explain to the customer is just annoying and many of them im sure have no idea. Its come to the stage now where instead of pulling the main fuse im taking tails out of a live henley block (if fitted). Ive seen on DS youtube channel that firms did exist that done the job for £90 or some such amount but have now stopped as its deemed unsafe/illegal/whatever. Ive also read ia previous Napit periodical that there was some kind of "training & certification" that would allow electricians to pull the main fuse, but that cans been kicked down the road once more by the looks of it. Anyways without going into a rant about it has anyone here, or any of your customers been fined/reprimanded/imprisioned/threatened for pulling a main fuse due to a smart meter alert ??
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Pulling main fuse and smart meters
Discuss Pulling main fuse and smart meters in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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In the USA if you pull a smart meter the power company will be there in less than an hour and will file charges and have you put in jail for tampering with a meter
Is it a requirement in USA electric code that there is a separate disconnection means after the meter? If so I can't see any legitimate reason to pull the meter.
The issue here in the UK is to work on the DB (= CU domestically) you need the power off to replace it and the Electricity At Work regulations say you should not work live unless absolutely no alternative, but often there is no means of isolation to do that or replace the 'tails' (main cables from meter to CU) other than pulling out the supply fuse.
Which you are not supposed to do.
However, the risk of death or injury always outranks upsetting the smart meter company who, when they fitted the meter, should have fitted an isolator switch so it was not necessary to pull anything!
Our meters are pretty much fixed, they are screwed to whatever support panel the input fuse & CU are and hard-wired, usually with the 'tails' of double-sheathed cable 16mm or 25mm in size (about AWG #5 or #3).
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Also here they would have to establish that you were attempting 'Abstracting Electricity'
Theft Act Offences | The Crown Prosecution Service
Elements
Section 13 of the 1968 Act creates the offence of dishonestly using electricity without authority or dishonestly causing electricity to be wasted or diverted.‘Dishonesty'
The test to be applied now must be that adopted by the Supreme Court in Ivey v Genting Casinos. See “Dishonestly” above under Theft in this chapter. The case of Boggeln v Williams (1978) 67 Cr App R 50 (in which it was said that “dishonesty” must be decided on the basis of the defendant’s own beliefs about whether they were being dishonest or not) can no longer be regarded as good law.It is not necessary that the defendant should have tampered with the meter. Provided that they have in fact used the electricity, that they were not authorised to do so and that in doing so they were being dishonest by the standards of ordinary people, the offence will be made out: R v McCreadie (1993) 96 Cr App R 143.
Allocation and Penalty
The offence is triable either-way. The maximum penalty at the Crown Court is five years and/or an unlimited fine. In the magistrates’ court the maximum penalty is six months imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine.
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If you get the same as mine the visor's action is a bit odd. Basically you pull it down over your face then when fully down slightly 'out' away from your face to lock it in place. Then pushing slightly down/back releases it and "boing!" it shoots up on its springs out of the way.Ps.. I've just ordered an arc flash helmet
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So you're spending money on extra PPE to perform an action that you shouldn't be doing without informing the supplier....
Just ask the supplier to install a service isolator instead of informing them.
Just ask the supplier to install a service isolator instead of informing them.
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Yep.The shop owner who needs a Isolator fitted .Made contact with the DNO and they are due to reply to him .Its been logged as urgent and also its been questioned why was one not fitted a few years ago when the new meter was fitted ? Lets see how long it takes !
That is a very good point, and getting the DNO/meter company to do what they damn well ought to have done in the first place is sensible.
Depending on what you do outside of non-approved fuse pulling, the PPE is good to have. Last time I had the lot on was doing some PFC/PSCC measurements on a live 800A busbar chamber, the sort of situation that give me the willies even with PPE on.
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Have done so more times than I can remember without incident and often if you're in a situation where the DNO is involved anyway such as a new build and basically don't come over as a total plum then they won't even bother sealing a new head if it's obvious more more is happening.
Except for one time..... was the early days of smart meters and the software basically crashed in it, wouldn't reboot properly after power was restored. The customer had to get their energy company to source a specialist engineer who then had to drive about 5hrs across country to sort out the programming again, was a right faff and what should have been a 1hr job turned into a whole day with no power for a very understanding client!
Except for one time..... was the early days of smart meters and the software basically crashed in it, wouldn't reboot properly after power was restored. The customer had to get their energy company to source a specialist engineer who then had to drive about 5hrs across country to sort out the programming again, was a right faff and what should have been a 1hr job turned into a whole day with no power for a very understanding client!
Do smart meter installers routinely fit an isolator where non is fitted or do they just pull the main, do the work and shove it back in again? I guess its down to individual metering companies and supplier requirements in their contracts? Thinking about it ,an isolator should be a compulsory upgrade given the issues with pulling and reinstalling a main fuse ?
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The isolator is fitted after the meter, before the consumer unit. The still have to pull fuse to change meter.
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Sorry. Rereading the post, I see what you mean.
Of course they should fit an isolator as standard but that sounds like too much common sense.
Edit
Sorry. Rereading the post, I see what you mean.
Of course they should fit an isolator as standard but that sounds like too much common sense.
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When I was metering, if a customer asked for an isolator because they were going to do some electrical work ie new CU etc, I would fit one no problem.
If they were aggressive I would say no its not standard unless it was beneficial to me.
If they were aggressive I would say no its not standard unless it was beneficial to me.
Hi all.
just a quick insight into the reason we don't fit isolators to every job when installing a new meter.
1: If the consumer tails are too short as we are instructed to fit them in the bottom of the isolator as if the fixings fail the tails that drop would be dead.
2 we are not authorised to carry out any work on a consumer unit or associated cables other than termination into the meter or isolator if we can fit one
3 space on the meter board. some as you know are limited.
This said I will generally fit an isolator where I can and you should find that all new installs/new builds have them as standard.
Other scenarios are that we do force fit some pre payment meters due to debt on accounts and if we are executing a warrant then speed is of the essence taking into account some of the places we fit meters. ( i wouldnt let my dogs stay in some )
As for pulling fuses we are trained to do so and are required to report any unsafe situations such as rotten meter boards, exposed copper etc. We also have full flame retardant double layered clothing and full PPE which is mandatory. A friend of mine had a flash over due to a faulty cut out and rotten board which gave way when putting the fuse back in and the PPE saved his skin although his boxers needed replaced.
Im sure there will be a few Yeah Buts to 1-2 and 3 and some of the other context but thats just a brief overview which I hope clarifies part of the initial question.
stay safe
just a quick insight into the reason we don't fit isolators to every job when installing a new meter.
1: If the consumer tails are too short as we are instructed to fit them in the bottom of the isolator as if the fixings fail the tails that drop would be dead.
2 we are not authorised to carry out any work on a consumer unit or associated cables other than termination into the meter or isolator if we can fit one
3 space on the meter board. some as you know are limited.
This said I will generally fit an isolator where I can and you should find that all new installs/new builds have them as standard.
Other scenarios are that we do force fit some pre payment meters due to debt on accounts and if we are executing a warrant then speed is of the essence taking into account some of the places we fit meters. ( i wouldnt let my dogs stay in some )
As for pulling fuses we are trained to do so and are required to report any unsafe situations such as rotten meter boards, exposed copper etc. We also have full flame retardant double layered clothing and full PPE which is mandatory. A friend of mine had a flash over due to a faulty cut out and rotten board which gave way when putting the fuse back in and the PPE saved his skin although his boxers needed replaced.
Im sure there will be a few Yeah Buts to 1-2 and 3 and some of the other context but thats just a brief overview which I hope clarifies part of the initial question.
stay safe
I think we will see a lot of "activity " the next 6 months . People are already offering to work with lives tails in order to bypass meters . Small consumer to run kitchen ring, boiler etc . So you still get a bill but its lower. I doubt the companies have the resources to check any "smart meter " flagging . I think most of it is just a myth !. Ive never heard of anyone getting a visit
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I have a rewire ongoing where someone was due to come and change the meter, so I left an isolator with a written note on the wall to please put his tails into it (no CU currently in place).
Instead he fitted his own, as apparently that is "all they are allowed to use" - a Chint one with a rather flimsy feeling main switch, but at least it makes things easy for me going forward.
Of course, a sensible industry would have an isolator built into every meter by now, like some non smart ones originally did apparently (never seen one though)
Instead he fitted his own, as apparently that is "all they are allowed to use" - a Chint one with a rather flimsy feeling main switch, but at least it makes things easy for me going forward.
Of course, a sensible industry would have an isolator built into every meter by now, like some non smart ones originally did apparently (never seen one though)
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The other channels generally nod and wink, but avoid showing it even when it's obvious they've done it - not sorry someone has made it open what everyone knows goes on.
Up rating or down rating? Down rating if the tails are undersized I wouldn't have such a problem with, but uprating assumes that you know the condition of the incomer/local demand, etc - something I doubt even the DNO knows these days....
A lot of risk in documenting that, should something happen....
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About 15 years ago (or therabouts) I was at a SELECT meeting and a consultation on smart meters was happening and they asked if we had feedback.
I suggested the new meters have a built in BS EN 60947-3 isolator (as several Hydro ones have) and this was passed up the food chain
After things were settled I asked about the isolators and was informed that they were ruled out for cost reasons as it would add £5 to a smart meter cost
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Given you a 'like' BE, as there isn't a 'scary' option.
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I once asked a WPD intake team who were drawing in a new line for a remote new-build to put in an isolator for me. Was told that they couldn't do it as technically because it was downstream of the intake it came under Part P - and they weren't part of a scheme!!
That was a good few years ago now, hopefully things have moved on somewhat....
Although I had a bit of a headscratcher in London back in lockdown, conversion of an old warehouse into a BMO - I was installing the initial BNO infrastructure. Trouble was, the developer wanted to move into one unit of six before the rest were even remotely finished, basically living on a building site. Talked directly to the UKPN engineer and when we came to move the 200/3 intake position I installed an adjustable ELCB before the run out to the Ryefield and meters. We mutually agreed it fell right off the charts in terms of normal regs and proceedures for both of us but was the right engineering thing to do.
That was a good few years ago now, hopefully things have moved on somewhat....
Although I had a bit of a headscratcher in London back in lockdown, conversion of an old warehouse into a BMO - I was installing the initial BNO infrastructure. Trouble was, the developer wanted to move into one unit of six before the rest were even remotely finished, basically living on a building site. Talked directly to the UKPN engineer and when we came to move the 200/3 intake position I installed an adjustable ELCB before the run out to the Ryefield and meters. We mutually agreed it fell right off the charts in terms of normal regs and proceedures for both of us but was the right engineering thing to do.
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