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M

matthunt

Hi Guys

I saw the other day a Voltage Optimisation Company stating that you can connect and feed an inverter via an optimised circuit, are there any views on how this would be allowed under G83-2
 
Can't be done unless maybe you also fit a separate G83 relay the grd side of the VO unit.
 
I know, it's frustrating. The thing is, they're only shooting themselves in the foot really, VO has a viable use for certain applications and load types but it's often sold as a magic box that is a cure-all for all applications. Proper VO (not just effectively a step-down transformer) with a decent current limit before bypass can provide savings to the user, if installed correctly and no pulling of wool over eyes is going on....
 
A kilowatt is a kilowatt is a kilowatt as far as I'm concerned, to the best of my knowledge the laws of physics can't be changed so no matter what is said I just don't buy that these things are anything other than smoke and mirrors.
 
That's very true, you're not wrong there. Power over time is a factor though, in terms of running costs of certain load types, which is what these guys should stick to focusing on - and they should stop telling people it's ok to fit them on the grid side of PV systems!
 
Power over time? So what happens to a 2kw kettle if you knock the voltage down?
NB, I am definitely not trolling you for an argument mate. I fail to see how these things can possibly work and therefore save anyone any money.
I've heard of companies being conned out of thousands to fit them and they've had them ripped out again after a few weeks because things don't work properly.
 
It's ok, I know exactly where you're coming from. I agree that in a domestic environment, they offer very little value, particularly the basic step-down transformer types. A resistive load like a kettle or bar heater is just going to take a bit longer to do the same job - no benefit. I'm talking about industrial/commercial applications where fixed speed motors/fans etc are running at unnecessarily high rpm, unregulated, and large high-pressure sodium lighting is in use. I'm thinking more about 3ph units that actually DO optimise their output voltage and keep it stable regardless of incoming supply fluctuations. In the right environment, with the right equipment, it is viable, it's been used in some form or fashion in industrial circles for many years.
 
Power over time? So what happens to a 2kw kettle if you knock the voltage down?
NB, I am definitely not trolling you for an argument mate. I fail to see how these things can possibly work and therefore save anyone any money.
I've heard of companies being conned out of thousands to fit them and they've had them ripped out again after a few weeks because things don't work properly.

This is true for items such as kettles but for items such as TVs, DVD, etc when they usually are 220-240 but converted to DC. It can help for certain items because the required DC output will be achieved whether the input is anywhere from 220-240, so there will be less power loss on a 220 > DC conversion as from a 240 > DC conversion.

There will be a hit for items like kettles, immersion heaters and bar fires as the input power will be less so will take longer to heat up and output less power (heat). Some people will notice this, others go and do something else while the kettle boils so would never notice.

Overall, it may be difficult to ascertain the true saving as most households contain a variety of different devices.

I don't hear the Germans complaining their Krupps kettles take longer to boil in Germany than our Russell Hobbs do in the UK.
 
Nor are they likely to because they are used to how long their kettles take to boil but that is not the issue.
Either things will take longer to heat up thus using exactly the same amount of power or there will be a lower output. I'd welcome your explanation on how all the items in our house, which are designed to run on AC could miraculously be changed to run on DC without any intervention. If this is not possible, how much is it going to cost someone to swap perfectly functioning AC appliances to DC?
As I've said, I've heard of large industrial buildings being conned into fitting these things and subsequently having them ripped out again because either the savings that were promised never materialised or because things just didn't work.
Another poster once tried to explain it using a 10kw shower as an example. He said if you change the wattage to 8.5k everything works out perfectly. When I asked how one changes the wattage of an appliance he went very quiet, hence my stance that a kilowatt is a kilowatt is a kilowatt
 
This is true for items such as kettles but for items such as TVs, DVD, etc when they usually are 220-240 but converted to DC. It can help for certain items because the required DC output will be achieved whether the input is anywhere from 220-240, so there will be less power loss on a 220 > DC conversion as from a 240 > DC conversion.

There will be a hit for items like kettles, immersion heaters and bar fires as the input power will be less so will take longer to heat up and output less power (heat). Some people will notice this, others go and do something else while the kettle boils so would never notice.

Overall, it may be difficult to ascertain the true saving as most households contain a variety of different devices.

I don't hear the Germans complaining their Krupps kettles take longer to boil in Germany than our Russell Hobbs do in the UK.

Actually those items that have multi-voltage inputs like Laptop chargers (100-220V) won't benefit either - so when doing an audit on a commercial premises you often have to discount the PC's, flat screens and LED lighting for the same reason.
 
Correct, as well as resistive loads, most AC/DC PSUs will not benefit from a lower input voltage. That's my point, in the domestic environment, there's hardly ever a load that will benefit from a power consumption point of view. You will hear arguments that the longevity of a device is improved but I doubt very much that it is tangible or, even if it is, that is provides any real ROI benefit.
 
Nor are they likely to because they are used to how long their kettles take to boil but that is not the issue.
I'd welcome your explanation on how all the items in our house, which are designed to run on AC could miraculously be changed to run on DC without any intervention. If this is not possible, how much is it going to cost someone to swap perfectly functioning AC appliances to DC?

I didn't say all items, just some.

If you check your laptop PSU you will note that the i/p is some 100-240V ac and the o/p something of the order 12-24v dc (mine is 19v dc). That's because micro-electronic and electronic equipment actually uses DC power, not AC. So back to the original query, a 220v ac input will give a 19v o/p much the same as a 240v i/p.

It is not the same for the likes of kettles, washing machines (the motor and heater, not the controller or logic board), electric showers and immersion heaters - these will be affected by a drop in the ac voltage.
 
I didn't say all items, just some.

If you check your laptop PSU you will note that the i/p is some 100-240V ac and the o/p something of the order 12-24v dc (mine is 19v dc). That's because micro-electronic and electronic equipment actually uses DC power, not AC. So back to the original query, a 220v ac input will give a 19v o/p much the same as a 240v i/p.

It is not the same for the likes of kettles, washing machines, electric showers and immersion heaters - these will be affected by a drop in the ac voltage.
I get the feeling that we're starting to split hairs here mate and that is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to troll this thread looking for an argument because that's just not me, I genuinely do not see how these things can benefit anyone whether that be an industrial concern or Mrs Goggins down the road.
Yes my laptop runs on 19 volts DC however the PSU is plugged in to an AC supply and it's the little box of tricks between them that steps the voltage down and rectifies it. I understand how that works and don't dispute it for a minute. It seems that the whole point of what I'm trying to point out is being missed so I might just stfu and bow out of this.
 
I must admit I've always struggled to get my head round the benefits of voltage optimisation for the reasons you have stated Trev.

If someone can get me to buy one then they have missed their vocation in life.

Selling snow to eskimos springs to mind.
 

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