rcd protection

[scott 123]

putting a light and socket in loft ...light from existing lighting circuit break into ring for socket...wylex board no rcd protection ...all bonding in place do i need rcd protection for socket as all cables to be surface mounted

 

[telectrix]

.fit a RCD socket then.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yes, unless the socket is for either a specific purpose or intended to be used only by skilled/instructed persons.

 

[shanky887614]

Yes, unless the socket is for either a specific purpose or intended to be used only by skilled/instructed persons.

putting a light and socket in loft ...light from existing lighting circuit break into ring for socket...wylex board no rcd protection ...all bonding in place do i need rcd protection for socket as all cables to be surface mounted

from july you will need a risk assesment if you omit rcd protection in domestic etc

 

[uksparks]

from july you will need a risk assesment if you omit rcd protection in domestic etc

I can only assume you are correct as you always seem to be, so can you kindly point me in the direction of where it says you need a risk assessment please.

 

[shanky887614]

I can only assume you are correct as you always seem to be, so can you kindly point me in the direction of where it says you need a risk assessment please.

here you go


i dont have regs with me but acording to iet website

www.electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/54/rcd-protection-of-sockets/index.cfm

411.3.3 Additional protection
In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall be provided for:
(i) socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20 A, and
(ii) mobile equipment with a current rating not exceeding 32 A for use outdoors.
An exception to (i) is permitted:
(a) where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that the RCD protection is not necessary, or
(b) for a specific labelled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment.
NOTE 1: See also Regulations 314.1(iv) and 531.2.4 concerning the avoidance of unwanted tripping.
NOTE 2: The requirements of Regulation 411.3.3 do not apply to FELV systems according to Regulation 411.7 or reduced low voltage systems according to Regulation 411.8.
NOTE 3: See Appendix 2, item 10 in respect of risk assessment.


Removal of the exception for socket-outlets for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons
Unlike the current version of Regulation 411.3.3, the new version does not permit the omission of RCD protection to a socket-outlet just because the socket-outlet is for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons.
The exception for socket-outlets for use under the supervision of skilled or instructed persons was removed because:
it was no longer seen as having any relevance, given the development in the application of RCDs to the general requirements of BS 7671 over recent years; and
there had been reports of the exception being abused, such as RCD protection to socket-outlets at a school being omitted on the basis that they were to be used under the supervision of a person instructed by the head teacher.
Documented risk assessment
Omitting RCD protection for any socket-outlet on the basis of a risk assessment is a serious matter and must never be done lightly. Such omission is not permitted for an installation in a dwelling; it is permitted only for an installation in some other type of location (see indent (a) of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3).
The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW), which applies in England and Wales, or the corresponding Statutory Regulations in other parts of the United Kingdom. The MHSW is referred to in NOTE 3 of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3 by means of its reference to item 10 of Appendix 2 of BS 7671.
MHSW puts the responsibility for carrying out risk assessments onto (as applicable) every employer and every self-employed person. The risk assessment relates to the health and safety of employees and self-employed persons while at work, and the health and safety of other persons arising out of, or in connection with, the conduct by the employer/self-employed person or his undertaking (MHSW regulation 3 refers).
In order for the omission of RCD protection to any socket-outlet on the basis of risk assessment to be permitted by Regulation 411.3.3, the risk assessment must determine that the RCD protection is not necessary. The risk assessment must be documented and a copy of it must be attached to the Electrical Installation Certificate or (where applicable) Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate covering the installation of the socket-outlet.
The person who prepared the risk must be prepared to justify his or her conclusion that RCD protection was not necessary, possibly in a court of law, especially if someone was killed or injured as a result of the RCD protection being omitted.
The electrical installation designer must equally be prepared to justify his or her own decision to accept the finding of the risk assessment and omit the RCD protection to the socket-outlet(s) from his or her design.

 

[Leesparkykent]

from july you will need a risk assesment if you omit rcd protection in domestic etc

Omitting RCD protection is not permitted for an installation in a dwelling; it is permitted only for an installation in some other type of location (see indent (a) of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3).

 

[Leesparkykent]

RCD protection - IET Electrical

This explains the lot.


Edit: just noticed shanky's link in #6

 

[shanky887614]

Omitting RCD protection is not permitted for an installation in a dwelling; it is permitted only for an installation in some other type of location (see indent (a) of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3).

In order for the omission of RCD protection to any socket-outlet on the basis of risk assessment to be permitted by Regulation 411.3.3, the risk assessment must determine that the RCD protection is not necessary. The risk assessment must be documented and a copy of it must be attached to the Electrical Installation Certificate or (where applicable) Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate covering the installation of the socket-outlet.

and you cant omit for skilled or instructed people now.



The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW), which applies in England and Wales, or the corresponding Statutory Regulations in other parts of the United Kingdom. The MHSW is referred to in NOTE 3 of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3 by means of its reference to item 10 of Appendix 2 of BS 7671.

 

[Leesparkykent]

In order for the omission of RCD protection to any socket-outlet on the basis of risk assessment to be permitted by Regulation 411.3.3, the risk assessment must determine that the RCD protection is not necessary. The risk assessment must be documented and a copy of it must be attached to the Electrical Installation Certificate or (where applicable) Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate covering the installation of the socket-outlet.

and you cant omit for skilled or instructed people now.



The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW), which applies in England and Wales, or the corresponding Statutory Regulations in other parts of the United Kingdom. The MHSW is referred to in NOTE 3 of the new version of Regulation 411.3.3 by means of its reference to item 10 of Appendix 2 of BS 7671.

Indent (a) of regulation 411.3.3 where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that the RCD protection is not necessary.

the omission of RCD protection is not permitted in a dwelling.

 

[shanky887614]

Indent (a) of regulation 411.3.3 where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that the RCD protection is not necessary.

the omission of RCD protection is not permitted in a dwelling.

obviously risk assement is not allowed for domestic because of what you have to write risk assement to

The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW),

 

[Leesparkykent]

obviously risk assement is not allowed for domestic because of what you have to write risk assement to

The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW),

I don't get your point. Do you think RCD protection can be omitted in a dwelling with the intent of change of 411.3.3?

 

[shanky887614]

I don't get your point. Do you think RCD protection can be omitted in a dwelling with the intent of change of 411.3.3?

read the whole post, dont skim

 

[Leesparkykent]

read the whole post, dont skim

1st paragraph under the heading Documented risk assessment in the link you put up.

 

[stevethesparks]

from july you will need a risk assesment if you omit rcd protection in domestic etc

obviously risk assement is not allowed for domestic because of what you have to write risk assement to

The risk assessment would have to be carried out in accordance with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 3242) (MHSW),

I think you're contradicting yourself.

 

[Richard Burns]

At the moment there is no requirement to work to Amendment 3, though of course it is permitted to work to amendment 3.

From 1st July, in a dwelling, the only method available to permit the omission of 30mA RCD protection for sockets is for a specifically labelled socket for a specific piece of equipment.

In non dwellings in certain circumstances it may be possible to undertake a risk assessment that identifies that 30mA RCD protection is not required for a socket or sockets and if this is documented with the installation certificate then the 30mA RCD protection may be omitted.

 

[Leesparkykent]

At the moment there is no requirement to work to Amendment 3, though of course it is permitted to work to amendment 3.

From 1st July, in a dwelling, the only method available to permit the omission of 30mA RCD protection for sockets is for a specifically labelled socket for a specific piece of equipment.

In non dwellings in certain circumstances it may be possible to undertake a risk assessment that identifies that 30mA RCD protection is not required for a socket or sockets and if this is documented with the installation certificate then the 30mA RCD protection may be omitted.

It is stressed that the exception may only be applied for a socket-outlet that has been provided for the connection of a particular item of equipment. The socket-outlet must be labelled or otherwise suitably identified so that users will be clearly informed that the socket-outlet is intended only for plugging in that particular item of equipment and for no other purpose. Unless the electrical installation designer is convinced that the socket-outlet cannot reasonably be expected to be used for other purposes, RCD protection for that socket-outlet should not be omitted.

so basically if it was behind a fridge freezer or the like. But the installation method would of course have to allow it.

 

[shanky887614]

I think you're contradicting yourself.

i knew about the change etc but by the time i looked into specidics i couldnt change it because off lockout.

i dont see the point in having a timer on edits.

other forums dont lock it and it doesnt cause issues

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The Screwfix forum has a time limit for edits.

 

[Marvo]

Most forums have a limit on the time available for editing. Edits done long after a post is made often cause confusion to others involved in thread and late edits also cause problems if a post has been quoted because only the original post is edited, the quoted versions of it aren't.