Regs on UG cable depth and marking

[malcolmsanford]

I agree the IET went to the trouble to define depths in special locations such as Agi, caravan parks and in marinas even though it quotes the infamous "sufficient depth" it does in a note recommend 0.5m as a minimum.

I suppose they rely on all sparks having the GN notes, I think it is GN 1 that gives a guide to depths, though I may have the wrong one there, as I don't have my GN notes here with me.

 

[Octopus]

I agree the IET went to the trouble to define depths in special locations such as Agi, caravan parks and in marinas even though it quotes the infamous "sufficient depth" it does in a note recommend 0.5m as a minimum.

I suppose they rely on all sparks having the GN notes, I think it is GN 1 that gives a guide to depths, though I may have the wrong one there, as I don't have my GN notes here with me.

GN1 5.7

Have a house point

lol

 

[Tafia]

Folks,

I have just been to the church yard with my trusty trowel and, sure enough, I came across what looks like a SWA cable buried with no marker above and no mechanical protection. It was about 6 inches down.

Just next to it are two flat stones to mark where the containers of someone's ashes have been buried. I guess it is quite possible that in the future, others will decide to bury ashes from the crematorium in the same area and they will need to dig deeper than 6 inches to do that!

I will now contact the chap who agreed to have the work done for the council in the hope of keeping both him and the sparks out of future bother.

Thanks again to all who helped me with this.

Best regards

T.

 

[Octopus]

Without wishing to state the obvious, but to bury a cable, in a grave yard, WITHOUT any marker tape and not deep enough is asking for trouble. In fact I think I'd be tempted to put 2 layers of warning tape in such a situation.

 

[Knobhead]

Wouldn’t cable tiles be more appropriate.

 

[Tafia]

Me again,

A sparky chum ( retired ) told me that the 17th Edition does not have the force of law but that if they are not complied with and an accident occurs as a result, then they could be used to prosecute the offender.

So, can someone tell me if the Regs do have the force of law or are they what someone has described as a statutory instrument within The Building Regs. I had always treated prior editions as law.

A website selling books and guides to the 17th Edition of the IET says it became law in January 2012.

All I can find on Part P refers to dwellings and of course a church or churchyard is not a dwelling in the accepted sense.

Sooooooooooooooo confusing.

Cheers

T.

 

[Octopus]

Me again,

A sparky chum ( retired ) told me that the 17th Edition does not have the force of law but that if they are not complied with and an accident occurs as a result, then they could be used to prosecute the offender.

So, can someone tell me if the Regs do have the force of law or are they what someone has described as a statutory instrument within The Building Regs. I had always treated prior editions as law.

A website selling books and guides to the 17th Edition of the IET says it became law in January 2012.

All I can find on Part P refers to dwellings and of course a church or churchyard is not a dwelling in the accepted sense.

Sooooooooooooooo confusing.

Cheers

T.

Now you've opened a can of worms.....

 

[Tafia]

House of God? Is that a dwelling??



I have found the following: "The 17th Edition Wiring Regulations ( BS 7671) is the standard expected in electrical installation work and the Regulations can be used in a court of law as evidence of this standard".

So it seems they are not law but if they are not followed then a court could bring in a guilty verdict if an accident occurred.

 

[mike the sparky]

The installation should be designed and installed as to ensure it is protected both mechanically and electrically.Ideally 1.3 mtrs in a argicultual site, ( deep plough in excess of 600m & it hits a 11kv cable, what a mess), 600-700mm underground unless other precautions are in place. Above ground is perfectly fine as long as in does not get damaged, but leaves and plants are good at hiding cables. If you can run around perimeter or under pathways. If depth is an issue then trunking and marker tape

 

[PC Electrics]

Part P of the building regs only applies to a dwelling. A church is not a dwelling.

BS7671 is not law.

Lesson for the future for all: always stipulate as part of the contract that the works must comply with BS7671 (latest edition)

 

[Octopus]

Yes but common sense says that to bury a cable, in a grave yard, un-marked, not deep enough, is frankly NOT good enough.

A professional shouldn't need a BS number to know that.

 

[jase]

Part P has nothing to do with it, the wiring regs apply to all electrical installations regardless of wether they are in a church, a house, a flat, a pub, a supermarket or wheverver else you want to install electrics, they are a non-statutory

 

[Tafia]

I have now learned there are plans afoot to make alterations to the church to provide a communal meeting area and also toilets in the next couple of years.

This will involve digging a trench to take toilet waste along the path which is crossed by the cable which feeds the first lamp which was installed; the one with the two inch wide slot across a tarmac path. It could be that diggers will spot the tarmac infill going to the lamp but where a cable to a second up-lighter has been looped from the first one, that, just like the one near the buried ashes on the south side of the church, is buried in a narrow "trench" which is presumably the same depth as the one I checked and which will soon be invisible when the ground settles and the grass grows.

I tried to contact the chap who ordered the work to be done through his firm (they are not electrical contractors) but so far he has not called me back. I don't know the name of the sparks he instructed and I did stress it was important that he gets in touch.

We shall see what today brings.

Thanks again to those who have helped me. It is much appreciated.

 

[PC Electrics]

Yes but common sense says that to bury a cable, in a grave yard, un-marked, not deep enough, is frankly NOT good enough.

A professional shouldn't need a BS number to know that.

One would like to think so. However, as pP doesn't apply and 7671 isn't law, our friend Tafia doesn't have any legal leverage if the firm involved isn't cooperative. About the only recourse would be breach of contract, for which the contract should state the standards to be used. If it didn't, then again, no leverage.

This smacks of a firm sending in a young lad "to chuck some lights in". Probably charging top dollar but doing the job bottom dollar.

It's substandard work for sure. And this sort of thing gets my goat as much as it does many others, but the truth of the matter is that there will be very little can be done about it now.
This is why my standard contract states work will be carried out to BS7671 and I am at great pains when quoting for work to tell the potential client that the job will be done properly, using good quality materials sourced from reputable wholesalers (no dodgy cable or 2nd hand stuff off ebay). I warn potential clients that I am not the cheapest. I compete on quality not price. Unfortunately there are many others who compete on price and skimp on the quality to achieve their price.

 

[Silly Sausage]

One would like.......

True, the regs aren't law but the ESQCR is.

This is section 14...

Excavations and depth of underground cables
14.—(1) Every underground cable shall be kept at such depth or be otherwise protected so
as to avoid, so far as is reasonably practicable, any damage or danger by reason of such uses
of the land which can be reasonably expected.
(2) In addition to satisfying the requirements of paragraph (1), an underground cable
containing conductors not connected with earth shall be protected, marked or otherwise
indicated so as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that any person excavating the land
above the cable will be given suYcient warning of its presence.
(3) The protection, marking or indication required by paragraph (2) shall be made by
placing the cable in a pipe or duct or by overlaying the cable at a suitable distance with
protective tiles or warning tape or by the provision of such other protective or warning device,
mark or indication, or by a suitable combination of such measures, as will be likely to provide
an appropriate warning.



AND don't forget the classic line...
'BS7671 isn't statutory but can be used against you in a court of law'

 

[Engineer54]

AND don't forget the classic line...
'BS7671 isn't statutory but can be used against you in a court of law'

Archy,

Though a bit of research on the web recently, the BS 7671 has been accepted as sufficient means, to ''Prove'' cases against the offenders in many such prosecutions!!!

 

[Tafia]

The real problem with this regulation is the word "sufficient" - which is open to interpretation. The man who's paid to dig a 600mm hole and put the cable in may decide that 250mm is OK as no one will see it.

The regs, IMHO, should outline specific examples i.e. flowerbed - 600mm,

Hi again,

Speaking with an undertaker yesterday; he told me that it is usual to bury ashes in a casket two spade depths down so clearly these cables at 6 inches down with no cable markers or warning tape are a potential hazard.

Thanks again to all for the information.

T

 

[Tafia]

Archy,

Though a bit of research on the web recently, the BS 7671 has been accepted as sufficient means, to ''Prove'' cases against the offenders in many such prosecutions!!!

Well folks, the church cable saga continues. I reported my concerns at the March council meeting and one idiot councillor claimed the wiring was nothing to do with the council even though we ordered the work and paid over £1000 with public money.

Another, who is a friend of the sparks said we cannot tell how deep a cable trench is by the width of the cut ( 3” wide in places). I asked how 6” wide cable tiles or 6 inch wide yellow warning tape could be laid in a 3 inch wide trench. He then said he would speak with the sparks.

April council meeting he was not there but his father in law, another councillor was and he reported that the sparks had claimed the cables were laid according to the regs. We know they are not because, as I mentioned, I lifted a turf and found the cables five or six inches down with no tiles or warning tape above them.

It gets worse. I now learn that the rector of the church, on seeing where one light had been placed, asked for it to be moved as it had been put on a pathway. Further to that, he told the sparks that the church was to install toilets and the sewage pipe was to be buried along that very path. So the sparks moved the light but has left the cable where it was, a few inches down and unmarked. Certain to be hit by a digger.

My problem is that I am trying to resolve this quietly without fuss but my fellow councillors fail to see the problem. I don’t want to tell them that I actually lifted a turf as the sparks might accuse me of interfering with his work. Could that happen, even though I was simply checking the cables for safety reasons?

I asked in March and April if he had given the council a copy of the installation certificate and the reply was no. Here we are three months after the work was done and still no installation cert has been seen by our council. He should also have given a copy to the church authorities as users of the premises. My wife is a church councillor and she said there was no mention of it at their recent meeting though I asked her not to mention the cables at this stage.

The sparks is an NIC member and I don’t wish to drop him in the mire but it is causing a problem.

Any thoughts on the best way to proceed folks?

Many thanks

T.

 

[brman]

You appear to be worried about rocking the boat. Is that likely to have some bad consequences for you?
and don't you want to drop the spark in it? If he has done the job properly he will be easily able to prove it, if he hasn't then he deserves what he gets.

Personally I would forget being nice and start rattling a few cages- I would put your concerns in writing to the council, including the fact you have evidence (lifting the turf) that this has not been done properly. In that letter I would point out you are concerned that this could cause a danger to anyone doing further work and whoever ordered the work could become liable if an accident or fatality occurs. I'd also copy the church authorities.

Mention of accidents and death and liability might just be enough for someone to realise they can't just ignore it. You might upset a few people but better than some contractor getting killed!

 

[Knobhead]

Just let it ride until the new drains are installed. Things will come to a head then.
I know you’re trying to get the install right, but if people won’t listen then it’s up to them.
Just be sure you have all the letters and notes you’ve written as condemning evidence.