Ring main,going going gone

[SJD]

There was a similar discussion back in late October about non-standard RFCs. I don't think it is possible for everyone to agree.

There are those who can see that non-standard circuits such as lollipops are just as safe, and will use them in some circumstances (repurposing the cooker circuit is a good example).

And there are those who will quote regulations that apply to standard circuits and won't consider anything non-standard. Some CPS assessors fall into this camp.

 

[Harry_P]

The regulations can’t accommodate every type of circuit arrangement that’s how I read it.
It’s obvious that a standard ring final circuit shall start and finish at the OCPD all conductors.
Why would the regulations go into every different circuit arrangement?

The regulations are for guidance but if you are experienced enough to safety do so then you are free to ignore any regulations that you wish to ignore, as long as you can justify what you have done. Therein lies the difference between a genuine electrician and a 5 week wonder...or it 3 week wonder these days???

 

[Octopus]

543.2.9

I’ve Not got my book with me right now - but I believe it states that the CPC’s of a ring final need to be taken all the way back to the origin of the circuit, and for me the origin of a circuit is where the OCPD is. I think the ring of the lollipop is exactly that - a ring. If that ring is wired in 2.5mm and on a 32amp MCB, and the ring continuity is broken....

I think you are missing the point of the lollipop circuit ... The stick from the CU has to be a larger cable or the ocpd is too big

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

Interesting discussion!

Apologies to the original poster for derailing the post.

I think you are missing the point of the lollipop circuit ... The stick from the CU has to be a larger cable or the ocpd is too big

Yep. I know that. I don’t feel like I’m missing the point. Could one of the 2.5mm legs get overloaded if continuity in line or neutral lost around the ring part?

Anyway - definitely different opinions.
I read through the Elesca article as posted by Wilko (thank you - had not seen that before). They even quote 543.2.9 but seem to have taken it upon themselves to replace ‘having both ends connected to the earthing terminal at the origin of the CIRCUIT’ with both end being connected to the origin of the RING (junction box or smart device).

So there you have it, ELESCA suggests lollipops are compliant. My scheme assessor interprets 543.2.9 as lollipops being non-compliant.

What do I think?

I think lollipops are best avoided, but can see how they can be installed and comply with overcurrent protection.

Still thinking it through to be honest. Not quite as steadfast as I was at the start of the discussion though....

Has the original question been answered?

I was also told, as a rule of thumb, to limit cable runs to 100m, and I understand the cable calcs in terms of exceeding allowable Zs when you start getting around the 100m mark. I thought that the 100 m squared floor area maximum mentioned in the onsite guide was more to do with limiting the number of socket outlets and the probability of overload? Guesswork of course - but it kind of make sense to me.

 

[MFS Electrical]

i like lollipops:

I don’t anymore@telectrix

 

[MFS Electrical]

For anyone that is interested!

543.2.9 - Except where the circuit protective conductor is formed by a metal covering or enclosure containing all of the conductors of the ring, the circuit protective conductor of every ring final circuit shall also be run in the form of a ring having both ends connected to the earthing terminal at the origin of the circuit.

So it would be a departure to be listed on the EIC

 

[Pete999]

I know that the NIC did a tech bit in P.E mag about testing hybrid circuits and both parts were tested separately.

I'll apologize before I continues Ant, if that's OK I saw that article, interesting. But NICEIC don't make the rules, someone else has stated that the Regs are guidance. There are some interesting points in this discussion, my view for what it's worth is, I don't agree with non standard circuits, the NICEIC as you say mention that a Lollipop circuit should be tested in two parts, by that I assume you mean, the ring part and the cable feeding that ring.
If that is the case in the NICEIC's argument, how do we fill the details in on an EIC, MNEW Certificate when there isn't any spaces for this type of circuit, I know you could /can fill circuit details in yourself, but it would be confusing for the next Electrician dealing with a problem or addition to the particular CU, if the Schemes say this sort of circuit is Honky Dory, then I feel further discussions with the IET are needed (perhaps yet another addendum for BS7671) This issue in my opinion causes so much confusion isn't it about time that such circuits are included in BS7671?

 

[westward10]

Jesus talk about complicating things.

 

[Ian1981]

The regulations are for guidance but if you are experienced enough to safety do so then you are free to ignore any regulations that you wish to ignore, as long as you can justify what you have done. Therein lies the difference between a genuine electrician and a 5 week wonder...or it 3 week wonder these days???

If you intend to ignore any of the regulations then you are intending a deliberate departure from the regulations and this must be recorded and justified by the designer and installer achieving the same level of safety as with full compliance with the regulations themselves

 

[johnduffell]

I said lollipop circuit is feared, that fear is caused by it creating a four page diversion every time it appears on a thread

 

[telectrix]

thinking about it. every installation is a variant of a lollipop. 1 cable in from DNO, which then splits via the DB into several separate circuits. tin hat in place.

 

[johnduffell]

thinking about it. every installation is a variant of a lollipop. 1 cable in from DNO, which then splits via the DB into several separate circuits. tin hat in place.

DNO are using their own rules! and it's not a final circuit until you get to the OCPD in the DB

 

[Markyd]

Enjoyed this thread....thanks everyone

 

[oracle]

Take a demerit House point Wilko, see me after School every day for a week for Lines, and chastisement

For the chastisement Pete, could you please wear leathers high heels and use the little whip?