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A good leader in time of need? Maybe.
A great guy? I think not.
While firm, decisive leadership was what was needed at the time and provided by Churchill would his rousing speeches have been so successful if Hitler had launched Operation Sea Lion instead of Operation Barbarossa?
However, Hitler screwed up and his mistake ended up costing Germany everything.
 
A good leader in time of need? Maybe.
A great guy? I think not.
While firm, decisive leadership was what was needed at the time and provided by Churchill would his rousing speeches have been so successful if Hitler had launched Operation Sea Lion instead of Operation Barbarossa?
However, Hitler screwed up and his mistake ended up costing Germany everything.

Churchill's refusal to surrender tied up a lot of the German army in France, had he been able to use those forces against Russia, the outcome may have been different.
 
He was certainly the man to have on your side during a war he was ruthless and cunning and I aplaud him for that.
As a polititian he didnt do well he was ruthless and cunning with the miners to favour his rich peers (but didnt hide his actions like the polititions of today)
Modern primeministers hide well behind the official secrets act etc say one thin do another.Thatcher hid well shooting the Belgrano whilst it was heading away from the prohibited area but the news at the time said it entered the area at her request. She used underhand tactics to destroy the unions starting with the miners then proceeded to sell off our assets leaving a "britain we live in now"
We are that poor in resourses Churchill and god couldent help us now!
 
Either way, it's customary to remember the dead for what they accomplished, not for their shortcomings.



That would be a fine sentiment if that were indeed the case Adam

An extreem example I know,but I would think the relatives of the victims of Harold Shipman have his qualities as a medical practitioner who healed the sick at the very bottom of what is customary for them to remember

Any man needs to be remembered as a whole,its not good to only cherry pick the parts that suit
OK maybe it's more about striking a balance then, and remembering the person for what they stood out for the most.
Harold Shipman may have healed the sick, but that was his job. Thousands of GPs heal the sick every day without special recognition. Overall though Shipman was a terrible GP because he killed his patients, which is what he will be remembered for.
Likewise Jimmy Saville nearly went down in history for all his charity work, until it came out that he was history's most profligate nonce, and he'll be remembered as that instead.

Winston Churchill is most often remembered as the prime minister who won the war; there have been several other prime ministers who have upset the miners.
 
OK maybe it's more about striking a balance then, and remembering the person for what they stood out for the most.
Harold Shipman may have healed the sick, but that was his job. Thousands of GPs heal the sick every day without special recognition. Overall though Shipman was a terrible GP because he killed his patients, which is what he will be remembered for.
Likewise Jimmy Saville nearly went down in history for all his charity work, until it came out that he was history's most profligate nonce, and he'll be remembered as that instead.

Winston Churchill is most often remembered as the prime minister who won the war; there have been several other prime ministers who have upset the miners.

Sorry to have to disrupt this thread again
I know it was set up to honour a person and maybe the rest of the posts will reflect the sentiment of the opening post


however I want to respond to the above

Your quote about the miners misses the whole point I have made in this thread
It was not to attack the person who many adore,it was to point out,for good or bad, that he was more than just the war hero,when he is remembered,it is right that we remember him for all his actions, not just the ones that sit comfortable with the people

Yes politicians of all sorts have screwed not only the miners but most workers over the years,it is going on now with this industry
That is not the point

It was an industrial dispute that could have meant life or death to those workers (if they accepted the owners actions) they had to do what was necessary to survive

Unlike all other political leaders,this man Churchill turned the British army out in battle mode against his own people in an industrial dispute,that can never be forgotten when he his saluted for his achievement's
 
Sorry to have to disrupt this thread again
I know it was set up to honour a person and maybe the rest of the posts will reflect the sentiment of the opening post


however I want to respond to the above

Your quote about the miners misses the whole point I have made in this thread
It was not to attack the person who many adore,it was to point out,for good or bad, that he was more than just the war hero,when he is remembered,it is right that we remember him for all his actions, not just the ones that sit comfortable with the people

Yes politicians of all sorts have screwed not only the miners but most workers over the years,it is going on now with this industry
That is not the point

It was an industrial dispute that could have meant life or death to those workers (if they accepted the owners actions) they had to do what was necessary to survive

Unlike all other political leaders,this man Churchill turned the British army out in battle mode against his own people in an industrial dispute,that can never be forgotten when he his saluted for his achievement's
Brilliantly pointed out.
 
So which prime minister was the one who was the champion of the miners?

I can see this thread turning into another realist vs socialist argument.
 
I can see this thread turning into another realist vs socialist argument.

Hahaha, I quite like that!

Realists; the rich getting ever richer at every one elses expense, and couldn't give a sh!t.
Socialists; the poor getting ever poorer from being fooked by the Realists, but do give a sh!t.
 
Hahaha, I quite like that!

Realists; the rich getting ever richer at every one elses expense, and couldn't give a sh!t.
Socialists; the poor getting ever poorer from being fooked by the Realists, but do give a sh!t.
No, it's more a case of everyone getting richer vs everyone getting poorer.

I'm not "the rich" BTW.

Speaking of 'great prime ministers'...

[video=youtube;pdR7WW3XR9c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdR7WW3XR9c[/video]
 
As a peacetime prime minister, he made some absolutely catastrophic cock up's, the worst one as far as the country was concerned was to tie sterling to the gold standard of the time. That one nearly accomplished what Hitler failed to achieve, ....finish Britain off for good!!
 
No, it's more a case of everyone getting richer vs everyone getting poorer.

I'm not "the rich" BTW.

Speaking of 'great prime ministers'...

You must have really fallen hook, line and sinker for the Tory propaganda if you honestly think that everyone getts richer!!

No, ...and you never will be either, if you still can't see the wood for the tree's!! lol!!

Great if you were rich to start with, otherwise you would have been paying out more tax in real terms at the end of her over extended term of office than before she came in to office!! And that after the majority of our public owned companies had been sold off too.... Every tax cut/concession she made that affected the so-called working class, was clawed back and then some, not so with the tax cuts directed towards the much better off!!
 
You are very quick (with what seems to be a fair bit of foul language) to insult me for pointing out that not everything we know about an hero is always so cut and dried

In fact I believe and accept that he was an heroic figure to millions for his contribution in the war years and those millions still remember with gratitude the role he played and I for one applaud them for being true to their history
He was the perfect type or character to lead Britain during dire times and I, not being a German, appreciate that his leadership during those years was vital and helped the country succeed

Now back to what I intended,to show that not all is roses in the Churchill garden

As a politician before and after the war he was an abject failure,even the appreciative electorate dumped him because he did not have the talent that would be needed for a leader in times of peace
He was a single minded,win at all costs figure,that happened to be the character of that man of privilege

That type of character was also the reason 30+ years before WW2 that he is not remembered here with so much gusto
The tactics he used successfully to help the country win WW2 were the same he used to win against workers trying to survive poverty,and I mean starvation type poverty,when there was a strike in the mining industry that closed a pit

My fathers description of the events that tarnish the man went along these lines
The reaction of the mine owners to the strike was to sack 800+ workmen who were not on strike in order to put them all in their place
They cared not for the people,only the profit margin that could be squeezed from them,remember there was not a social security net for these people just despair

Also remember at this time the worker had to live in the mine owners propety,eat food bought from the mineowners shop and were but slaves in all but name in this wonderful country that Churchill would go on to lead

The miners fought with the only weapon they had,their labour,they went on strike throughout the area
Churchill being the Home secretary in far away London agreed to assist the mine owners to defeat the workers by sending in hundreds of mounted police from a county force far away from that area

The mounted police obviously acting under instruction from above were described as acting like an invasion force with brutal tactics against ordinary folk who dare protest

The people in the area fought back and control was lost by that force and request was made to Churchill for armed troops to put down these people
He dispatched hundreds of troops to the area and the community was bullied into submission
He would have little hestitation in permitting the use of the live ammunition that they carried and would have won this battle with whatever it took to do so,that just so happened to be the character that served him and the country well years later

His actions in WW2 were heroic,the same actions against his own people years before can only be described as shameful
That is the reason he may not be so endearing here,however,that is not to say that I don't respect the people who hold the man in awe,they just happen to have a different view of the man to me

when i said forget the little **** i was referring to things outside of wartime.. apologies if i came across rude that wasnt my intentions just believe that although some of his decisions were wrong as a pm can you imagine what could have been if we had lost that war... civilians would have been butchered if germans made it i through.. people wouldnt have had jobs they would have.been slaves. but as you said each to their own
 
A man who's dad was a Lord, Chancellor of the exchequor, and a member of the Duke of Marlboroughs (off top of my head so may have the wrong one) family.

Without dismissing Churchills wartime achievements, there is not a chance in the world he would have been able to get to the position of Prime Minister without his aristocractic upbringing. And as others have said, outside wartime a true tory supporting the rich and smashing the poor at every opportunity.
 
I agree, more Tory propaganda why keep bring it up? The sooner people relies the government only look out for themselves and there cronies the better. They are your worst enemy.
 

Reply to RIP - Winston Churchill in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net

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