Safe change consumer unit - main fuse seal question

[GLENNSPARK]

what's a seal?

He was a musician (early 90s) i think.....

 

[Paul.M]

After reading the opening post a few times, I dont think this chap has any experience in the electrical world and I would be cautious on giving him advice on pulling the bullet or disconnecting the main stiff wire (tail). I may be wrong but I'd rather be wrong than help someone fry himself?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

No probs Paul. THANKS for reading the thread fully as some posting on here clearly havn`t. My first post to this thread clearly states that if the cutout looks old/crap then it should only be handled with VDE pliers and the empty fuse carrier reinstated to protect so as not to compromise the IP. I guess some cant read right either...............

 

[SPARTYKUS]

see my suggested post also (about leaving well alone and getting a DP iso fitted)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

No probs SPARTY. I think this subject will rattle around in here again mate. Why don`t the DNO just hold there hands up and authorise it (for registered electricians) and have done with it...........

 

[Paul.M]

I won't have a go at anybody's spelling, grammar or punctuation but when people pop up asking questions that are well above their weight (you can tell by the lack of terminology) it boils my blood.

Ok times are hard and everyone needs to watch the pennies but please don't be playing around with major things like consumer units, power to a shed or something simple (to us) like putting in a new shower. There is a reason why it takes us so long to become qualified, experienced and registered, there's more to it than "just a few wires".

Please don't pull the bullet, if your asking questions about it your not competent to do it yet. I know the saying "if you don't ask you will never know" but this is something you should learn on site with proper training and not a web site. Ok my luke warm rant is over, good luck to the op.

 

[somersetsparks]

The DNO's won't do it because, you are then working on their network without theyre training and safety gear and if something were to happen e.g. dodgy cutout that crumbles, live melted concentric dropping out and zapping you etc. you may hold them responsible. Although all these things sound unlikely, i am sure most of you have seen the condition of many 'networks'!

For instance when I pull a fuse I am supposed to wear 11kv gloves, visor and flash jacket. I am supposed to check condition of carriers, check polarity at P.M.E cutout etc.
Does all this get done everytime by the employess of the DNO? No but a box gets ticked to say it does, so they 're happy.

 

[mogga]

The DNO's won't do it because, you are then working on their network without theyre training and safety gear and if something were to happen e.g. dodgy cutout that crumbles, live melted concentric dropping out and zapping you etc. you may hold them responsible. Although all these things sound unlikely, i am sure most of you have seen the condition of many 'networks'!

For instance when I pull a fuse I am supposed to wear 11kv gloves, visor and flash jacket. I am supposed to check condition of carriers, check polarity at P.M.E cutout etc.
Does all this get done everytime by the employess of the DNO? No but a box gets ticked to say it does, so they 're happy.

there in lies the thing The DNO employees are TRAINED and during that training they are shown alll sorts of differing cutout types and sinarios such as you describe crumbling,broken,old cutouts and how to deal with them As for the DNO employees not wearing the full safety gear that would be the guys own judgement as to PPE required by his risk assesment done on site using the training and knowlage gained As I keep saying Advising to "just pull" on here is WRONG as noone other than the OP has seen condition type and posistion of the cutout Some of the OPs asking (as has been mentioned) Know very little of the risks involved and some would appear to know nothing of what they are asking I would also remind Commenters that this is a PUBLUC forum and as such advice given can be viewed by anyone not just members IE advice given could be followed by joeBloggs D.I.Y. novice It could also be viewed by LABC and DNO JIB Select Eca NicEic Napit ect ect persons

For those who have had an assesment What was the view of Asseser on Cutout Fuse removal??

 

[malcolmsanford]

You'll know this Mogga being upt.north the SSE allows members of select and the ECA to pull the fuse.

This was also a system that the other networks were thinking of implementing network wide but it never happened, and IQ posted that it as now raised itself again to happen.

I know an engineer for a DNO and I asked him why the proposed plan for allowing sparks to pull a fuse was stopped. Whether he was right or not he told me that the networks were concerned with the training or lack of it now being done within our side of the industry. They were concerned that the schemes were allowing inexperienced and not fully trained "electricians" to join them on full scope and the networks where worried about the exact same thing the you and Somerset outlined.

It seems to me that once the NVQ 3 level was announced by the ECA the topic of electricians pulling a main fuse is also now back on the table under the guise of smart meters etc.

I think whether we like it or not, the dumbing down of our industry is not only a concern for us that work in it, but also a concern for others. Obviously this may just be my friends view on it, but over the years he as not steered me wrong often and I for one think if he is not 100% accurate, he is not far off.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I spy a contradiction!

Perhaps you need new glasses ;-)

The EAWR's don't permit working live! How else is he suppsed to isolate the CU?

Nor do they permit the casual pulling of the fuse by people not adequately trained and equipped to do it.

Work on or near live conductors
14. No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless–
(a)it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and.
(b)it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and.
(c)suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury..

It is also not illegal to pull the fuse,

The DNO will attend to do it for you, so doing it yourself fails (a) and (b) in Regulation 14.

It is illegal.

 

[D Skelton]

The DNO will attend to do it for you, so doing it yourself fails (a) and (b) in Regulation 14.

It is illegal.

Well I don't know about you but when I pull the main fuse I always take suitable precautions to prevent injury, such as assessing its condition before I even lay a finger on it, and in my view, it is unreasonable for the slightly exposed live termination on the incoming side to be dead as that would mean cutting the supply to the entire street.

Also, I never work with it exposed as I always take the fuse out and replace the carrier, so thats me conforming to 14(b) too as I'm not working on or near it when it's live.

My opinion = It's not illegal

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So how far away from it are you when you first pull the fuse carrier out, and then replace it without the fuse?

It's not your property, it's not your customer's so they cannot give you permission to work on it, and the people who do own it haven't given you their permission either, so how can it be reasonable for you to fiddle with it?

 

[D Skelton]

It doesn't matter whos property it is, neither does it matter if you have permission or not, pulling the fuse is not illegal. If I was to jack up your car, turn all the wheels 180 degrees and then put it back down again (without damaging it in any way), even if I haven't got your permission to do it, I still have't commited any criminal offence. Yes it's your propety, yes I haven't got permission to tamper with your car and yes, most would consider that to be an odd thing to do, but it's not criminal just to touch something that isn't yours.

Although you may consider it unreasonable for me to fiddle with the fuse, as long as I don't damage it, it's not illegal.

Another slightly off topic example would be if I was to walk into your house through an open door and sit myself down on the sofa, that in itself wouldn't constitute a criminal offence, however, you would have more than enough grounds to sue me for trespass.

The point in which I'm trying to make is that although something may been seen in the eyes of many as wrong, it isn't neccesarily illegal.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It doesn't matter whos property it is, neither does it matter if you have permission or not, pulling the fuse is not illegal.

Yes it is.

Although you may consider it unreasonable for me to fiddle with the fuse, as long as I don't damage it, it's not illegal.

As you do not have permission to do it, it is unreasonable.

The example of jacking up my car is also an example of something which is unreasonable, but there is no law making an unreasonable action like that unlawful.

But there is a law which makes it unreasonable for you to work on or near a live conductor when there is an alternative.

 

[Johnny-G]

Yes it is.

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

 

[D Skelton]

Yes it is.

No it's not.

But there is a law which makes it unreasonable for you to work on or near a live conductor when there is an alternative.

As I've already stated, pulling the fuse wouldn't be considered working on a live conductor. If it was the case that pulling the fuse is working on a live conductor, then you'd have to apply the same reasoning to when you carry out live tests eg. Ze and PFC tests as technically you are working by carrying out necessary tests, and your tester is in contact with a live conductor.

I understand why your viewpoint is the way it is, however your reasoning is flawed.

 

[D Skelton]

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

You are correct. If by default you already have permission by the DNO to cut the seal on the condition that you inform them when you have so that they can come out and re-seal, then that is not illegal no.

However, this only applies to cutting the seal. If you cut the seal without their permission it would be considered criminal damage, whereas if you just pull the fuse without their permission, then you commit no offence.

 

[Johnny-G]

Pulling a fuse which isn't sealed is probably similar to just switching off an isolator or switch fuse in regards of legality, safety aspects apart of course, and no-one ever blinks an eye if you do that.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

Thats a very grown up sensible DNO you have there ....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Pulling a fuse which isn't sealed is probably similar to just switching off an isolator or switch fuse in regards of legality, safety aspects apart of course, and no-one ever blinks an eye if you do that.

In regards of legality it's not the same, because the owner of the isolator or switchfuse gives you permission.

The owner of the cutout does not.

But the main issue is the safety one, and that's which, combined with the fact that it's not reasonable to do it, makes it a contravention of the EAWR.

And I dare say that if they had a mind to a DNO could argue that reinserting the fuse without their permision counts as a contravention of ESQCR 25...