Salary of us poor sparks

[NorthOxfordElec]

I’m curious to find out how us electricians earn, compared to others? Having read the editorial in professional electrician about how our counterparts in Australia, Japan, USA, Germany earn anything from £11k to £19k more than we do here, added to a train driver now being able to get pay of £50k+ for a 37.5hr week, I’m wondering if it’s actually worth continuing in the trade with all the hassle it brings? My hourly rate when broken down is paltry in comparison to the train driver

 

[Octopus]

I find it best not to do this .... You can't compare apples with Apple's, especially across different countries.

And Australia is a very expensive place to live these days...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yeah and they never have rain or snow.

 

[Pete999]

I’m curious to find out how us electricians earn, compared to others? Having read the editorial in professional electrician about how our counterparts in Australia, Japan, USA, Germany earn anything from £11k to £19k more than we do here, added to a train driver now being able to get pay of £50k+ for a 37.5hr week, I’m wondering if it’s actually worth continuing in the trade with all the hassle it brings? My hourly rate when broken down is paltry in comparison to the train driver

The questions I would ask are:
Do these countries you mention have a decent approved method of becoming qualified, or are they like us who allow you to do a couple weeks training and the be allowed to be let loose in peoples property?
Personally, and from lots of experience, from working with Electricians from other countries, the reasons they are paid more, is because these countries treat the Trades Persons with the respect they deserve, Their Governments aren't a Government of PC bigots, better pay equals better tradesmen in the long run, they don't have the fast fix qualification we have, or didn't when I was working with them, some of the Finnish Sparks I worked with, were amazed how we allow poorly trained people practice our trade, Rant over sorry NOE

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I hear a lot of things about sparking in different countries.
In America for instance I have heard they have one type of sparks to do conduit and wiring and another to do connecting?
In Holland they do not use metal conduit.
In Australia they have to be licenced in each state (I understand that there is one state licence which is acceptable in all states), and there are two grades, A and B.
B grades can only work when supervised by A grades.

 

[Pete999]

I hear a lot of things about sparking in different countries.
In America for instance I have heard they have one type of sparks to do conduit and wiring and another to do connecting?
In Holland they do not use metal conduit.
In Australia they have to be licenced in each state (I understand that there is one state licence which is acceptable in all states), and there are two grades, A and B.
B grades can only work when supervised by A grades.

One of the reasons Qualified Sparkies are paid more in those countries. Here you can do a couple of courses and Bingo off you go.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of the reasons Qualified Sparkies are paid more in those countries. Here you can do a couple of courses and Bingo off you go.

Legally, you don’t even need to do that.

 

[Pete999]

Legally, you don’t even need to do that.

True

 

[The Ghost]

I have to say it ----es me off to keep hearing about England being apparently one of the worst places in the world for electricians. Looking at statistics of death by electrocution in the trade and non-trade there is nothing to indicate the prevailing tone of english electricians are the worst in the world. If you have some figures I will happily retract the above.
In the meantime can I suggest instead of constantly running down electricians of English origin and talking up any other countries electricians that we approach the subject with a slightly more even minded outlook?

 

[Pete999]

I have to say it ****es me off to keep hearing about England being apparently one of the worst places in the world for electricians. Looking at statistics of death by electrocution in the trade and non-trade there is nothing to indicate the prevailing tone of english electricians are the worst in the world. If you have some figures I will happily retract the above.
In the meantime can I suggest instead of constantly running down electricians of English origin and talking up any other countries electricians that we approach the subject with a slightly more even minded outlook?

I have to say it ****es me off to keep hearing about England being apparently one of the worst places in the world for electricians. Looking at statistics of death by electrocution in the trade and non-trade there is nothing to indicate the prevailing tone of english electricians are the worst in the world. If you have some figures I will happily retract the above.
In the meantime can I suggest instead of constantly running down electricians of English origin and talking up any other countries electricians that we approach the subject with a slightly more even minded outlook?

Wasn't trying to run down English Electricians Mate.
But with the onset of Part P and the introduction of Amendment 3, where by the rules changed regarding the use of Consumers Units (CUs) made non combustible materials, prior to this Amendment 3 we had happily installed plastic type CUs in domestic installations, why, you could ask yourself. Was it bad manufacturing, or was it sub standard installation? all of a sudden the Fire Brigade decided along with all the CPSchemes that it would be a good idea, about this time the Domestic installer was born. Other countries don't have these, yes they have different grades of electricians, who have to be supervised. Lets be honest it's not just Electricians, DIY stores sell Electrical installation materials to joe public, there are other outlets who do the same, so the role of an Electrician has, in my opinion been besmirched by DIYers doing electrical work, along with, and it saddens me to say, people taking the IET 17th course etc and calling themselves Electricians, Part P as well, when we all know this is not the case. Of course there will always be an exception to this scenario, and folk taking high intensive electrical courses, often produce exceptional people, there are some active in this forum, there are unfortunately many who don't fit this type and are only interested in the fast buck option.
You talk of Death by electrocution, which is of course a tragic occurrence, but what about the shoddy workmanship, that isn't inherently dangerous, but looks bloody awful, I suppose I will upset some with this post, as it has rankled you, I will need to change my thinking I suppose, gone are the days where by you did you 5 year Apprenticeship, you became an Electrician, qualified, maybe not experienced yet, as we all know that takes time, nowadays it's all crash bang thank you Mam, I'll leave it there I think you get my drift.

 

[NorthOxfordElec]

I don’t think anyone is running down English sparks, I think you’ve missed the general tone of the topic? I can’t speak for other countries as I don’t know how robust their qualification system is, but for me I’ve seen a correlation between the implementation of part-p in 2005 and a decline in respect of the trade and, certainly domestically, a decline of earnings when compared to trades/careers. If there hasn’t been any sort of decline then why is it that we are so poorly paid here when compared to the other countries mentioned above? Apparently it’s a years training for a train driver and then £50k+ per annum, how many properly trained sparks do you know that have (a) learnt all they need to know within a year, or (b) upon becoming fully qualified can go into employment on £50k+ per year?
I think the only answer is to form a proper electricians union that pushes for (a) the highest possible standards, and (b) for salaries that reflect the skill required and responsibility of the trade.
It’s not unfair to say that there are people out there trading as sparks who have “trained” for little more than a handful of days or weeks.

 

[Midwest]

Judging by the types of questions and answers asked & given on this forum, across the spectrum, I would say there are some very experienced & qualified electricians in this country; if this forum is a gauge of that. More so than the inexperienced & unqualified.

As regards remuneration; it would seem that train drivers do earn a very good salary, but it does not seem that easy to become one; How do I become … a train driver - https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jun/04/how-become-train-driver, plus shift work and having one of the most powerful unions.

If this list is to be believed, you think coal miners might be a bit peeved with train drivers;
Best paid UK jobs 2014 Compare your pay to the national average | This is Money - http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2868911/Best-paid-UK-jobs-2014-Compare-pay-national-average.html

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Don’t know how true it is, but my understanding, is that New Zealand dispensed with Licensing for health and safety reasons.
I was also under the impression that Australia were to follow suit.
As for Unions, Electricians dispensed with them back in the 80s. The Electricians at that time decided they could earn more being self employed, than being employed. Something that is probably still true today.

 

[The Ghost]

Wasn't trying to run down English Electricians Mate

I know, I hesitated before pressing the button, but there is a lot of talk and comments quoted from overseas electricians on this forum that seems to cast us in a poor light. I did not mean to single you out in particular. And I do take the point that regards the five week wonders and DIY stores implicitly supporting poor electrical installation, and agree with it. It is just I hear so much putting down of certain sections of society I thought I would do my bit in pushing back and getting people to see that we have reason to take pride.
It is JIB that set rates for electricians, who purport to be for electricians. Outside of employment frankly I do not see it as impossible to earn 50k a year working full time. However I choose to work part time but am quite happy with my remuneration for my work day to day and feel well paid.

 

[The Ghost]

If there hasn’t been any sort of decline then why is it that we are so poorly paid

More than once I have come across people who will do a job i.e. CU change for £100 I can not compete with that. No certificate no pack drill no names etc. There is a vast amount of such people doing work for consumers who are more than happy to work in this way. So companies have to compete against that kind of thing as well as sole traders. No doubt the nouveau sparks popping up everywhere will also be undercutting more experienced and capable sparks. Perhaps that is some of the causes of low wages/pay?

 

[Midwest]

I see via google, that a lot of foreign (I just did France, Spain & Germany) DIY stores sell similar electrical products, which don't appear to require proof of being an electrician (although I don't speak the lingo).

So perhaps we can dispense with that one urban myth

 

[Pete999]

More than once I have come across people who will do a job i.e. CU change for £100 I can not compete with that. No certificate no pack drill no names etc. There is a vast amount of such people doing work for consumers who are more than happy to work in this way. So companies have to compete against that kind of thing as well as sole traders. No doubt the nouveau sparks popping up everywhere will also be undercutting more experienced and capable sparks. Perhaps that is some of the causes of low wages/pay?

Cowboys are the scourge of the earth mate, the loyal well trained Electrician cannot compete, like you say. The general public need educating, but is that going to happen, no of course not, the upsurge of Do it all Dave, and the fast track bods are the fault of the Scams, they dream-pt up these fast track ways and don't police it properly, only interest in getting more and more money/ I watched a debate a while ago in which Emma Clancy was admonished for continually mentioning getting more business and competing, when in fact the chairman said the scams should be offering a better service, or words to that effect.

 

[Midwest]

Can't challenge the fact, that there are poor trade persons across the board. Can challenge that those that have obtained their training via short course are incompetent, there are several members of this forum that have taken short courses. Don't think they would be too pleased of being accused as incompetent, just because they have had to take that route.

In fact, some of the roughest sparks I've ever come across, did an apprenticeship. That did not stop them from rough work. It always seem to be acceptable standard, because they were quick to complete the task.

Most of the bad workmanship I've come across in the domestic market, has been done by home owners.

 

[Pete999]

Can't challenge the fact, that there are poor trade persons across the board. Can challenge that those that have obtained their training via short course are incompetent, there are several members of this forum that have taken short courses. Don't think they would be too pleased of being accused as incompetent, just because they have had to take that route.

In fact, some of the roughest sparks I've ever come across, did an apprenticeship. That did not stop them from rough work. It always seem to be acceptable standard, because they were quick to complete the task.

Most of the bad workmanship I've come across in the domestic market, has been done by home owners.

I certainly made that very point in my long post, never once did I say all short course Sparks are/were incompetent, like you said lots of excellent Electricians on this forum who took the fast route, my point was that there are lots who aren't, maybe not forum members, I hasten to add.

 

[Midwest]

I certainly made that very point in my long post, never once did I say all short course Sparks are/were incompetent, like you said lots of excellent Electricians on this forum who took the fast route, my point was that there are lots who aren't, maybe not forum members, I hasten to add.

Sorry Pete, wasn't aimed at you, or even this particular thread. Its just something I read on this forum time after time, and it does grate with me a bit