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Markc

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Is anyone using the services of Save & Generate website?

They (apparently) have interested clients who log on to this website and give details of their property for the installation of a PV array. These details other than a name and address are then sent out to registered installers (And by that I mean those on the MCS list!) to read the very vague details for them to then provide an idea as to a size of system and an estimated cost.

The sting in the tail is. If you provide an estimate and then subsequently a quotation and get awarded the job Save & Generate will ask for 1 of the following:

1. 5% on total value of job. So a £20K job will cost you £1000 + VAT
2. £20 lead fee and 3% on value of job to a maximum of £1000. + VAT

Option 2. £20 is payable regardless of getting the job or not (except the 3% obviously)

Anyone else think this is a joke?
 
Yeah, they're taking the ****.

Precisely the kind of set up that I hate. A company that makes money off the back of other peoples expertise yet offer no benefit themselves.
 
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save and generate with my hammer!
 
Hey guys,

This is Roger from Save & Generate! I'll start by saying that I totally get where you are coming from, the PV sector in particular has everyone and the Jones' jumping on it trying to make a buck. I'll try and keep this short but I'm keen to give you the whole picture. If you'd prefer to talk to me directly about it please pm me. I'd welcome the message.

-It's not just PV, we cover all systems from energy efficiency through voltage optimisation right through PV and solar thermal to biomass boilers even AD systems!

- Nearly all the customers on the site are genuine we check each one before they get sent out to installers the majority we've either requested with the customer ourselves at events, during consultancy sessions we run or they are in fact jobs that we are project managing and need quotes for. (I say 'nearly all' because a few cheeky installers have tried to put fake quote requests in, we catch most of them ;)

- There are three parts to the S&G company: the website, the consultancy and the educational services. (Just so you don't get the wrong impression of size there are only 3 of us.)

- We charge 5% on a completed job up to a max of £1000 (we introduced the £20 plus 3% as a test and are reviewing with installers to see if it works) We are completely up front and honest about this charge from the moment you go to the site as an installer or as a customer. We think it's very fair as we offer a lot more than a simple referral service and it's a no lose fee. You only pay it if you get the job and there are no other costs associated with these customers. You quote, you get shortlisted, you survey (unless it is a new build with complete building plans), you hopefully get the job.

- Each installer on the system gets their own profile to which they can upload logo's, product brochures, case studies etc There is even a Google style interactive map showing their location as well as the facility to upload installations with photo's and case studies to the map. These are then viewable to browsing customers on the installer profile page map as well as on a general map showing the growing number of installations in the UK a (take 5 seconds to check it out, it's a great tool to show people that this stuff really works and they should get involved!) We are trialing monitoring systems to link live generation data to the map. For small local installers (the ones we are really trying to support) this provides advertising plaform that they just would not be able to afford to set up (in time or expense). The whole site is free to use for installer and customer.

- We're setting up a discussion forum for MCS installers only where urban myths can be dispelled (we take the outcomes and make sure they get advertised) and best practise past on between installers. (not sure if everyone will be so keen to share as us but we've had a pretty positive response so far.)

- The customer gets clear independent information on all energy efficiency and renewable energy systems (please have a look at the information section, whilst it's not faultless it's pretty comprehensive) and an easy way to get quotes from local installers.

- installers get a raft of free services and customers who are educated in the prerequisites, issues, costs and paybacks so are usually ready to invest. These customers come with no upfront marketing costs, whilst you will have to compete with other installers I don't think any of you would argue against a customer getting a number of different quotes.

I hope you can see what we're trying to do with this site. We ARE trying to offer benefit and expertise to the sector. We're passionate about this sector and helping it reach it's full potential for success. Like I said earlier, I'd be happy to chat to anyone about what we do and the expertise we have. You can finish here or read on for a little more about where the idea for the website came from and who we are.

The idea for the website has come over the past 4 years in which time I have been directly hands on involved with the installation of solar Thermal (integrated with a wood stove with back boiler heating system), Solar PV and a 6kW wind turbine at my family home. My experience of the industry was bad, there was no clear independent information and some of the claims made by installers were incredible to say the least. So after studying the subject officially for another year (MSc at Imperial College) I paired up with my now business partners; Mike, an energy efficiency consultant with over 10 years high level consultancy experience and Duan, a web developer of terrifying capabilities. We're motivated by and passionate about the uptake of sustainable energy lifestyles including distributed energy generation systems. We have built this company, every last nut and bolt, with our own hands (I even got my girlfriend to design the logo!). It's taken 14 months of incredibly long hours with ZERO external funding.

I really hope you take another look at the site and you'll hopefully see we are not taking the ****!

Sorry it's a bit long
 
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my main thing with this website is, if you go back and look at how many times the client has been quoted its ususally 9-10 times, do we really want to pay these sums for that service, if we were ever to pay what they are asking id expect the number of contractors the leads were sent to, to be limited, i personally think any installer who needs this site should think again, there are other lead sites out there if you want to use them, or just wait for the next job to come in!
 
That problem has been rectified.

robbobnbill,

You've got a good point there and this was a lesson we learnt early on. When we first launched the system proper, (only September this year) we were over whelmed by the response and caught off-guard. Customers received 15 quotes very quickly before we had automated cut-offs in place. This was no good to anyone. After a number of different trials we've landed on the system as it is now: All the installers contacted can see how many quotes have been left and choose whether or not to leave a quote. It's totally up to the installer. The customer also has a big NO MORE QUOTES button that indicates that they've had their fill. The customer also has a number of button options to keep installers up todate with the job progress. JOB ON HOLD for example.

At the moment we limit the number of installers geographically. The next stage we're working on is to offer the quote out to the very local installers first then over time (say 2 weeks) open it up to installers from further a-field. This guarantees the customer gets enough quote estimates (the feedback we're getting is 3-6 is preferred).

Any other feedback is appreciated, we want this to provide a service to you the installers as much as for the customer.
 
Well saveandgenerate, i think you'll find it hard to preach to the forum as what it comes down to is you make money off other peoples backs for doing nothing, using the skilled to ride the wave in a sense but although the gullable out in the real world may take you up on your offer im afraid this is the wrong site to try convert people, your background personel skills or energy put in to the setting up of the business mean nothing if at the end of it all you want to sit back and let others do all the hard work and if you are a hardened worker and skilled person in said field then get out there and earn the money doing the job, i personally think youve dont a business course or two and trying to live the easy life of big money for little effort and if it works out i wish you all the best but i hope i speak for many when i say grafting for you hard earned cash is what many of us are about on this forum without having to give a cut of the profits elsewhere.
 
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Ok really not trying to preach, just trying to get across that we're trying to provide a real beneficial service: Advice for people interested and educated customers for the installers.
I've never done any sort of business course. I'm not going to send you my CV but I assure you all of us involved in S&G know how to graft and will continue to do so.
Take 5 mins to look at our website. Give me a call with any questions, or post them here. Try not to get defensive we're not trying to take business away from anyone!
 
You would have thought so, but unfortunately the MCS web site is hopefully inadequate for this type of search currently (this statement is based on our own experience and a host of feedback received from people who come to us for advice) and we have had organisations such as the Center for Alternative Technologies approach us to get our GIS installation map with search facility embedded in their web site in order to allow their visitors to search for local installers. What's more, apart from the installer details, the information people can access via our installation map for free includes direct independent user feedback on both installer services and equipment, key geographical data on wind speed and solar irradiance, as well as systems performance data, which I believe is currently not available from any other online resource in the UK. Cheers, Mike (Roger's business partner)
 
we had a meeting with the energy saving trust last week who are fortunately creating a database of MCS installers accross all the technologies, a database that will be searchable and will work, they will also be offering impartial advice on the different technologies and offering to find installers for consumers FREE of charge, this is win win for consumers and installers, we dont have to hike prices up to cover rediculous lead fees, and they dont have to pay for information that is already out there, the sooner this service goes live the better!!
 
It's interesting that you're happy with the EST concept (which is remarkably similar to the S&G concept). it's a good idea right? and will act as a support system for the industry. In the EST case, for the moment at least, the tax payer foots the bill.
We have also had a number of open meetings with the EST, and one of the useful insights we have had from them is that, at some stage, they WILL turn commercial (a la Carbon Trust). They have to, the public shouldn't have to fund this in a successful sector. It will be interesting to see if this system is to the same standard as the rest of the EST site and if it is still free or even still exists in a couple of years time.
 
The EST is in place to help reduce carbon costs. It's main role seems to be giving impartial help and advice to the consumer.

Why should the industry pay for this? We already adhere to competent person schemes and standards of practice codes so why should we pay again?

If anything, it is the MCS website that needs better arranging - something that we already pay for.

There is no need for a middle man in this industry - which will ultimately cost both the installer AND the consumer and benefit neither.
 
You're abolutely right Martin, the EST has an important role to play as an advisor on energy efficieny for the domestic sector, but have to date steered well clear of providing referral services and displaying of customer feedback since these fell outside of their remit. How the EST develops its 'free' services in the future in light of changing commercial business models and government spending cuts remains to be seen.

Rather than keep having an endless back and forth on the worth of our system, let me just state the following as our final post to this discussion thread:

At Save & Generate we provide a service which, based on extensive pre-consultation and ongoing collation of feedback, the vast majority of installers active on out site (well over half the UK installer population) are happy to pay for because they see the benefits of having an impartial
Sales/Marketing/Advertising service which cuts out a lot of the grunt work for them (endless telephone advise for dead-end leads, etc). At the end of the day - if people want to pay for something, they will, if they don't, they won't. It's all about freedom of choice - and we give people choices. The service is free to use by anyone and anyone not wanting to use the service we will take off our database if they so request. We have had some such requests in the past but once talking it through with them on the phone for 5 minutes they normally changed their mind. We have the expertise and the technology to help installers get qualified quotes from people who have made an informed choice, whether you want to make use of this service is entirely down to you.

Thanks for giving us the benefit of doubt and taking 5 minutes to find out what we are really all about.
 
Why should anyone need customer feedback? The requirements of MCS and the REAL schemes already demand not only excellent standards for an installation but also excellent customer service and communication. We're in an industry that is heavily regulated - simply put, the cowboy MCS accredited PV installer is a mythical creature.

Has this website filled a gap in the website? Perhaps, but it is a gap that it made for itself by convincing both the installer and the customer that it needed them. Installers will of course want to be part of it because they want as many leads as possible. The customer thinks it needs this website because the MCS website is so vague and clumsy.

This website has created no more potential custom for the PV market, it has simply added itself to the food chain. Something that we will all pay for.
 
Well as I started this I thought it best I came back in. (been working away a few days and the forum on the blackberry is rubbish!)

I certainly wasn't expecting S&G to be here! I welcome them and have read their posts with interest and all your valid replies. It is certainly a can of worms. From my prospective I see two major issues with the way in which S&G has set up their system.

First and obvious is cost. It is astonishing to think that a lead and job could cost £1000 or £20 + 3%? so either way its several hundreds of pounds for a lead. So adding this into the cost of a job can only cost the client in the end if the works goes ahead or the contractor £20 each time it doesn't! But either way S&G gets payment. The PV industry is increasingly more and more competitive with more and more installers achieving MCS every week (and welcome to them as well) so the cost of installation is coming down and down. It is hard to agree adding further costs into the equation is beneficial to anyone. Why are these costs so high? What is S&G reasoning to think a possible £1000 for a lead is value for money?

Second point is regarding authenticity of leads. With the current system, and I accept that S&G state they check each lead, there is a huge element of uncertainty. No one person can guarantee a genuine lead and yet if option two is chosen it will cost you £20 to find out as a minimum, more if you go out on a waste of time survey. Why penalise the installer for a miss-managed lead if it is bogus. This should be down to S&G.

I do belong to a lead generation company. How their system is based works very well for our circumstances. Surprisingly and to much scepticism the majority of leads are genuine with their system, calls are vetted and we receive the FULL client information, Name, Address, Email etc etc, not just a POSTCODE, for US to contact them directly, Talk on the phone, and arrange a survey. If they are bogus we know on the phone before paying for the lead and before committing time and money to a false lead survey. If the lead is false we DON’T pay for it. If it is genuine we do but at a set one off fee. £25 per lead paid on invoice at 30days. Not prior to receiving any information. I consider this to be a fair option and work this into our monthly advertising budget. We choose how many we want at any time each month from none to….well what ever! If we are flat out we opt out for one week, two week or what ever. It’s on our terms 100%. A fair price for a fair lead in an area of our choice.

S&G, like said in earlier posts, seem to me to be creating a chocolate tea pot company! Inventing an unnecessary product of unfair fees for installers to estimate installation cost from poorly gathered information. Bogus leads generated from local installers trying to find out competitors estimates etc. This cannot be stopped regardless of what S&G say and I would invite you all to try it! Email address off google or hotmail and there you go.

So I say to S&G. Justify your costs? Justify your methods? And Justify your system? A fairer system being NO up front fees will encourage your people to justify leads that bit harder and if bogus leads still filter through WAVE the FEE for it. Drop your fee cost, £1000 is just ridiculous. You may well find fairer fees will lead to more revenue!
 

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