Schneider ZBE 101 is not working

[LordKelvin]

Hi guys,

I would to say hello to everyone and hope I will be comfortable in this forum!!

I am a mechanical engineer and I am in a certain way "forced" to learn also electrical stuffs.

At the moment I am trying to understand why my RESET button (ZBE 101) on my machine does not work.

I narrowed the issue on the loop that has to change the state of the security relay PILZ PNOZ X2.8P
I mean if this circuit is "closed" then the PILZ switches all the NO contact and energise other three safety contactors (and from there I will have the option to start the machine etc. etc.)

In order to close the loop as you can see from the picture attached we need to go through the block A that is actually a series of interlocks and emergency buttons (I already checked them: the interlocks have "green led" that means they are working so NC; the emergency button are released so NC)
and
through the block B where I assume is the problem.

The block B is a series of 3 safety contactors connected by their NC connections (so they are all three NC contacts in the loop) and (always in series) with the RESET button that is instead NORMALLY OPEN.

As you will understand, the ONLY NO contact is the reset button (Schneider ZBE 101) so I push the reset button, I close the loop and the PLZ should switch its state!

My problem is that when I push the reset button, The ES does not switch. I have the power led (due to the red line in the picture) but the other two leds (CH1 and CH2) are OFF,


Any advice, input etc. will be really appreciate.

It looks simple the way it works but actually I am stuck at the moment. Thanks.


FURTHER INFO: I had to take off all the wires and rewire again, but I checked all the connections in the loop and they are the same of when the button was working.

 

[Bobster]

Power down the panel, and measure continuity across the push button when it's pressed.

 

[Darkwood]

The issue with safety relays is there are many out there that all work and connect differently to comply with differing circuit arrangements and safety cat' .. your drawing means nothing without terminal ID and a possible link to the wiring plans for the unit you have with the wiring option that is been used....

Please add the terminal ID's so at least we can cross reference what you have done?
Do you have a meter to confirm Closed circuits on the E-Stops and limits and also to confirm N/O to closed on the reset?

Lastly I hope you are aware of the implication and weight of responsibility you have put on your shoulders here getting involved with machinery safety equipment, from what you describe you are probably not insured or covered to do so and you seem to be picking it up as you go along where you main career is Mechanical Engineer... who is forcing you because what you are doing could in a worse case scenario get someone injured or killed if the system failed to function properly after you had been involved, you are stepping into a quagmire of legal issues here because you feeled pressured to sort it out. Stick to what you know where I'm sure that you are more than competent and always get an Electrical Engineer in for these matters. That way all correct procedures will have been followed, all parties will be covered to do and insured and the correct paperwork issued... anything goes wrong then and the paper trail will save your ---.

 

[LordKelvin]

The issue with safety relays is there are many out there that all work and connect differently to comply with differing circuit arrangements and safety cat' .. your drawing means nothing without terminal ID and a possible link to the wiring plans for the unit you have with the wiring option that is been used....

Please add the terminal ID's so at least we can cross reference what you have done?
Do you have a meter to confirm Closed circuits on the E-Stops and limits and also to confirm N/O to closed on the reset?

Lastly I hope you are aware of the implication and weight of responsibility you have put on your shoulders here getting involved with machinery safety equipment, from what you describe you are probably not insured or covered to do so and you seem to be picking it up as you go along where you main career is Mechanical Engineer... who is forcing you because what you are doing could in a worse case scenario get someone injured or killed if the system failed to function properly after you had been involved, you are stepping into a quagmire of legal issues here because you feeled pressured to sort it out. Stick to what you know where I'm sure that you are more than competent and always get an Electrical Engineer in for these matters. That way all correct procedures will have been followed, all parties will be covered to do and insured and the correct paperwork issued... anything goes wrong then and the paper trail will save your ---.

We have a company that certifies everything and think about safety certifications etc. CE marking etc. I am just learning about this because I will need to understand better the machines for my training on machinery. So I do not believe there will be any issue for me, isn`it?

I will check what asked

 

[LordKelvin]

Noone is forcing me, it was under " " :cool3:

 

[LordKelvin]

The issue with safety relays is there are many out there that all work and connect differently to comply with differing circuit arrangements and safety cat' .. your drawing means nothing without terminal ID and a possible link to the wiring plans for the unit you have with the wiring option that is been used....

Please add the terminal ID's so at least we can cross reference what you have done?
Do you have a meter to confirm Closed circuits on the E-Stops and limits and also to confirm N/O to closed on the reset?

Lastly I hope you are aware of the implication and weight of responsibility you have put on your shoulders here getting involved with machinery safety equipment, from what you describe you are probably not insured or covered to do so and you seem to be picking it up as you go along where you main career is Mechanical Engineer... who is forcing you because what you are doing could in a worse case scenario get someone injured or killed if the system failed to function properly after you had been involved, you are stepping into a quagmire of legal issues here because you feeled pressured to sort it out. Stick to what you know where I'm sure that you are more than competent and always get an Electrical Engineer in for these matters. That way all correct procedures will have been followed, all parties will be covered to do and insured and the correct paperwork issued... anything goes wrong then and the paper trail will save your ---.

It is a demonstration machine that it is being used for my training. My background is automation and robotics in Uni. I will in the Machinery department and I am having under supervision a training on it. So I do not think I will have legal issues with this. Am I wrong?

Btw I could ask for some external training or course if you do not mind I might write to you in pm. So I dont go OT here. Really appreciated.

 

[Darkwood]

Cheers for the explanation ..the fear was you were out on site trying to repair a machines critical safety system by asking a forum ...you can understand my hesitation to go any deeper without making it clear where you may have stood.... if this is just a test rig for personal training and not out in the field then a different matter altogether and would have helped a little to know in your opening post.
http://www.is-com.ru/files/PNOZ_X2_8P_en.pdf
Right then the wiring plan is here ^^^, you can easily check if you have a faulty start button contact block or broken wire by momenterally putting a link between terminals S12 and S34, if the relay resets then the problem is in your reset loop.


If it doesn't reset then your issues may be elsewhere and again you can prove it quite simply by removing wires and fitting links on the loop inputs to prove you have no open circuits on the loop you disconnected or simply use a meter to check your loops are closed.

Cannot tell you anymore without knowing which of the systems on page 3 of the link you have.

 

[LordKelvin]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. I will do tomorrow at work, having the machine there for me. As you will understand I am still learning about the subject and I already downloaded that document and I will provide tomorrow all the answers. thanks a lot guys!!!

 

[Darkwood]

Welcome to the Forum anyway I'm sure your PLC programming and automation knowledge will be helpful to others ...(If I'm having a day off ) feel free to press the like and thanks button to boost our tally ... we get a free mug at 1000 thanks ; not really!

 

[Chrishands]

Hi mate, not sure what you know about these Pilz units but usually you have a dual safety circuit. And a reset circuit. There is usually 5 lights. 2 lights for each chanel on your safety circuit, both these lights should be on, if so, both channels will be made. You can then push reset which should send a low voltage back to the Pilz and providing all your required chanels are closed circuit (healthy) then the pilz contactor should pull in and your 2 output lights will come on aswell as your 2 chanel lights. When you press your reset button usually it also flags a light up o the pilz to let you know its fecievi g it.


check you havent got your chanels crossed. S11 to s12 and s21 to s22

 

[LordKelvin]

Hi mate, not sure what you know about these Pilz units but usually you have a dual safety circuit. And a reset circuit. There is usually 5 lights. 2 lights for each chanel on your safety circuit, both these lights should be on, if so, both channels will be made. You can then push reset which should send a low voltage back to the Pilz and providing all your required chanels are closed circuit (healthy) then the pilz contactor should pull in and your 2 output lights will come on aswell as your 2 chanel lights. When you press your reset button usually it also flags a light up o the pilz to let you know its fecievi g it.


check you havent got your chanels crossed. S11 to s12 and s21 to s22

I noticed only three leds. Power ch1 ch2. Atm power only is ON. I know the basic theory. I tried to sort out on my own before posting..also because it is part of my learning process to get into the subject with my effort

When today I ll have my machine I ll try everything suggested here atm and I ll tell everyone whats going on. If I will still able to write...zZz zZz...joke! Well..not really (((

I m always super careful anyway

 

[LordKelvin]

http://s11.postimg.org/xdef4gnjn/SR_scheme.png

the updated scheme with more info. If any news you can add thanks

 

[Bobster]

Looks ok, quickest solution is to power the panel down, then just go point to point with a continuity meter to prove everything is as it is on the drawing. There isn't a contactor on the feedback circuit stuck in?

Nothings been changed with the Pilz unit? Without looking up that particular model, some have a dial on the front to change if it is reset from a rising edge pulse or a falling edge etc...

 

[Chrishands]

I noticed only three leds. Power ch1 ch2. Atm power only is ON. I know the basic theory. I tried to sort out on my own before posting..also because it is part of my learning process to get into the subject with my effort

When today I ll have my machine I ll try everything suggested here atm and I ll tell everyone whats going on. If I will still able to write...zZz zZz...joke! Well..not really (((
I m always super careful anyway

Hi if only the power light is on, then most likely you haven't either wired up your safety circuit correctly, or you have a faulty switch on the safety side, for both channels to not be on, I have also been caught out once on an allen bradley (red) safety relay where there is a little PCB fuse located inside the front of the cover which had blown and i didnt know about it, but since your power is on its not likely to be that (just something to consider in the future)

 

[Darkwood]

Disconnect the safety loops wiring

Link out S11 - S12
Link out S21 - S22

Then put a momentary jumper across S12 to S34

If this resets the unit then the safety relay is fine.

Choose a safety loop and reconnect and retry the momentary reset as above this will identify where the issue lies.
Repeat with other loop if it seems fine.
You may also have accidently crossed over the loops so they are connected up wrong or you may have a short between them.. both these scenarios can damage some brands and models of safety relays sometimes blowing them, check the manual on that. (Some relays provide integral S/C protection)

You can choose to use other methods as a diagnostic but the above first proves your safety relay is functional.

 

[LordKelvin]

Power down the panel, and measure continuity across the push button when it's pressed.

Hi mate, not sure what you know about these Pilz units but usually you have a dual safety circuit. And a reset circuit. There is usually 5 lights. 2 lights for each chanel on your safety circuit, both these lights should be on, if so, both channels will be made. You can then push reset which should send a low voltage back to the Pilz and providing all your required chanels are closed circuit (healthy) then the pilz contactor should pull in and your 2 output lights will come on aswell as your 2 chanel lights. When you press your reset button usually it also flags a light up o the pilz to let you know its fecievi g it.


check you havent got your chanels crossed. S11 to s12 and s21 to s22

Cheers for the explanation ..the fear was you were out on site trying to repair a machines critical safety system by asking a forum ...you can understand my hesitation to go any deeper without making it clear where you may have stood.... if this is just a test rig for personal training and not out in the field then a different matter altogether and would have helped a little to know in your opening post.
http://www.is-com.ru/files/PNOZ_X2_8P_en.pdf
Right then the wiring plan is here ^^^, you can easily check if you have a faulty start button contact block or broken wire by momenterally putting a link between terminals S12 and S34, if the relay resets then the problem is in your reset loop.


If it doesn't reset then your issues may be elsewhere and again you can prove it quite simply by removing wires and fitting links on the loop inputs to prove you have no open circuits on the loop you disconnected or simply use a meter to check your loops are closed.

Cannot tell you anymore without knowing which of the systems on page 3 of the link you have.

Looks ok, quickest solution is to power the panel down, then just go point to point with a continuity meter to prove everything is as it is on the drawing.

I did all the first page of the thread except to simply connect s12 and s34 because I noticed darkwood updated in the very last post with more instructions on that side.

UPDATE: There is continuity S11, S52 --> interlock and then S34 --> INT3
S12 --> S34 is fine once I push the reset button (of course)
then S21 --> interlock and S22 --> INT3

So with the panel power down it looks like there is NO continuity in the interlocks. BUT of course they are closed when I power up the machine because I can see the green light on each of the three!

Interlock brand is MECHAN, just for info.



So and please tell me if I am wrong, the issue is not in the safety loop.

 

[LordKelvin]

There isn't a contactor on the feedback circuit stuck in?

Nothings been changed with the Pilz unit? Without looking up that particular model, some have a dial on the front to change if it is reset from a rising edge pulse or a falling edge etc...

Rob the model is PNOZ X2.8P

if there are not other considerations, I will carry on with the trials that darkwood gave to me

Please also find a further update with the feedback circuit (I believe it is this one...Am I wrong?)

 

[Bobster]

You need to prove that the Safety relay is working, so follow Darkwoods last post.

FYI - this is a manual for that safety relay.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1703021.pdf

 

[Darkwood]

http://www.is-com.ru/files/PNOZ_X2_8P_en.pdf

We may be getting confused here .. which method do you think you have on page 3 of this link ...I'm under the assumption from the diagram you posted that you have a dual safety gate set up ie the 4 th down in the INPUT dual channel column... ?

This is the same connection set up with E - stops like 2nd option down same column.... connecting S11 to S52 gives monitoring of shorts between the separate loops...

PS I would also look into disconnecting all outgoing relays to ensure a fault on the 24vdc(asumming this is the control voltage) isn't dragging down the supply when you try reset you safety relay

 

[LordKelvin]

http://www.is-com.ru/files/PNOZ_X2_8P_en.pdf

We may be getting confused here .. which method do you think you have on page 3 of this link ...I'm under the assumption from the diagram you posted that you have a dual safety gate set up ie the 4 th down in the INPUT dual channel column... ?

This is the same connection set up with E - stops like 2nd option down same column.... connecting S11 to S52 gives monitoring of shorts between the separate loops...

With my humble level of knowledge of the subject, it looks like the same to me.....