Socket ring circuit 6mm to 2.5mm - interesting!

[kkkkk]

Hi all
Working on a site with a general builder who planned on doing all the electrical work - total rewire - on the job, and is miffed because the home owner decided to call in a qualified electrician and get his certificates - builder has run some lighting cables, any old cable he had lying about (4 core/immersion heater cable/etc), which I'm replacing - and told us that he was going to run the ring circuit to start in 6mm T&E from the Consumer Unit, then (after an unspecified distance) to a junction box to split into 2 x 2.5mm T&E. Obviously he wasn't going to test, or notify, or certificate the work. Like to see the comments

 

[Octopus]

Lollipop circuit ...... very common in kitchens

As for bob the builder ..... no comment

 

[Dillb]

Aside from the testing, what other problems with what the builder is doing?

 

[SJD]

As Murdoch says, quite often come across a lollipop circuit where a spare cooker circuit has been re-purposed. Just have to be careful not to use choc-block connections and then tile over them!

 

[mydigitalhome]

Yes normal in Europe, as said by others use wagos or a (MF) JB

 

[kkkkk]

This is the advice I've been given by an expert on the electrical rules and regulations:
"If anything went wrong it would be impossible to justify why you have not followed IET GN3 in a court of law.
Don’t do it. Use a correct ring main."

 

[westward10]

The only place GN3 would find itself in a court of law is under a table leg to stop the table wobbling.

 

[Octopus]

This is the advice I've been given by an expert on the electrical rules and regulations:
"If anything went wrong it would be impossible to justify why you have not followed IET GN3 in a court of law.
Don’t do it. Use a correct ring main."

Such as what.

You can test a lollipop circuit for continuity, IR and compliance for Zs ........

So unless I'm missing something, please educate me ..............

 

[kkkkk]

I've never heard of it before, and have therefore not been taught that this is an acceptable way (or obviously an unacceptable way, however I do as per my training) - so I've asked on this forum and had your opinion - the information I posted earlier is not my own, thus the quotation marks - so I can't educate you I will ask NIC tomorrow and get their input also - feel free to watch this space - thanks for the comments peeps

 

[Octopus]

I've never heard of it before, and have therefore not been taught that this is an acceptable way (or obviously an unacceptable way, however I do as per my training) - so I've asked on this forum and had your opinion - the information I posted earlier is not my own, thus the quotation marks - so I can't educate you I will ask NIC tomorrow and get their input also - feel free to watch this space - thanks for the comments peeps

I, as will many others be VERY interested to hear what the NICEIC say - that said they don't write the regs or police them..........

Where did you get the information in quotes ?

 

[123]

A Lollipop ring is fine. For a total rewire though this job sound like a lash up and a half.

And have to say I have no idea what "immersion heater cable" that OP talks about it is.

 

[kkkkk]

A Lollipop ring is fine. For a total rewire though this job sound like a lash up and a half.

And have to say I have no idea what "immersion heater cable" that OP talks about it is.

Yes, I am not doing this "lollipop" ring - I do standard radials or ring circuits.

Immersion heater cable is heat resistant cable. Obviously not needed for a lighting circuit.

But it makes me think what else the builder was going to do, and obviously there would be no certification or notification, and no testing, so how would the builder know it was safe?

 

[123]

Yes, I am not doing this "lollipop" ring - I do standard radials or ring circuits.

Immersion heater cable is heat resistant cable. Obviously not needed for a lighting circuit.

But it makes me think what else the builder was going to do, and obviously there would be no certification or notification, and no testing, so how would the builder know it was safe?

A lollipop ring is fine for new install. It's the rest of it that sounds concerning.

Heat resistant cable, as in flex?

 

[Octopus]

Good decision by the home owner..............

 

[kkkkk]

I have spoken to NIC & a "lollipop" ring circuit is described as being unconventional, not incorrect, but not advisable - as said, it has been used when alterations were done in existing wiring where an old cooker circuit has been used. The main reason it is not a good idea is for the future, when testing is done and the joint where the 6mm joins the 2.5mm cannot be tested, as it would normally be hidden from sight and probably inaccessible, plus a future tester would not know the format of the circuit. Thanks everyone for your input, I had not heard of this before.

 

[Pete999]

I have spoken to NIC & a "lollipop" ring circuit is described as being unconventional, not incorrect, but not advisable - as said, it has been used when alterations were done in existing wiring where an old cooker circuit has been used. The main reason it is not a good idea is for the future, when testing is done and the joint where the 6mm joins the 2.5mm cannot be tested, as it would normally be hidden from sight and probably inaccessible, plus a future tester would not know the format of the circuit. Thanks everyone for your input, I had not heard of this before.

Summat else The NICEIC have made up then

 

[sparksburnout]

I have spoken to NIC & a "lollipop" ring circuit is described as being unconventional, not incorrect, but not advisable - as said, it has been used when alterations were done in existing wiring where an old cooker circuit has been used. The main reason it is not a good idea is for the future, when testing is done and the joint where the 6mm joins the 2.5mm cannot be tested, as it would normally be hidden from sight and probably inaccessible, plus a future tester would not know the format of the circuit. Thanks everyone for your input, I had not heard of this before.

Your responses are very typical of someone who does not have the ability to work out of the comfort zone encouraged by individuals and organisations who lack experience. Why do you feel the need to keep referring to the NIC, and just repeat their comments, which are obviously designed to placate "electricians" who have no ability to operate "outside the box".

 

[johnduffell]

To be honest even if it wasn't specifically allowed by the regs, you're allowed to record deviations to the regs.
Contrary to common belief, those are not a list of non compliances for any reason, they are a list of things that don't comply with the regs but do provide an equivalent level of safety etc.
If lollipop circuits were not otherwise allowed, you could easily infer them as being a deviation. You could make circuits of all sorts of topologies, although the documentation required might not make it practical for domestic.

 

[kkkkk]

Your responses are very typical of someone who does not have the ability to work out of the comfort zone encouraged by individuals and organisations who lack experience. Why do you feel the need to keep referring to the NIC, and just repeat their comments, which are obviously designed to placate "electricians" who have no ability to operate "outside the box".

I don't think there is a need to get personal - and I see nowhere where I "keep" referring to the NIC - I said on the post earlier that I would ask their opinion, then I posted their opinion - this was merely for information and is not my opinion - I have already stated that I had not heard of this method before. Most people are very pleasant and helpful on this forum, but there are a few that make me hesitate to get involved any further.

 

[Octopus]

I have spoken to NIC & a "lollipop" ring circuit is described as being unconventional, not incorrect, but not advisable - as said, it has been used when alterations were done in existing wiring where an old cooker circuit has been used. The main reason it is not a good idea is for the future, when testing is done and the joint where the 6mm joins the 2.5mm cannot be tested, as it would normally be hidden from sight and probably inaccessible, plus a future tester would not know the format of the circuit. Thanks everyone for your input, I had not heard of this before.

That's 1 massive generalisation.

The only time I "adapted" an old cooker circuit I had to use a JB and this was accessible - all be it you had to remove a kick board to get to it - this was on the certificate.

As for not advisable - that's pure rubbish

Wonder what regs they quoted to back up these claims