starter glow plug circuit

[MissOrange]

Hi there,
Ive recently been noing some work on my injector pump, when I pulled the IP out a few wires became muddled and now it doesn't crank. This is a CF Bedford with a LD28 from a Laurel (C32). Its had its original petrol engine and the current diesel, its also run off LPG in the past. The diesel starter circuit has had a manual glow switch installed. Currently the system has a glow plug controller, a glow plug timer, a glow push button, and two relays (this is my current labelling of these parts, photos to follow.

Due to frustration with the sea of wires that seem to not go anywhere (from older electical circuits and fuel systems) and are getting in the way of me trying to figure out the problem, I have ripped a few more out. So likely I have a system where I now need to add some connections.

Here is a diagram of the system I currently have. I need to figure out what I need to add to this system to get it to work again! I dont have a factory wiring diagram, I doubt whether any of the wiring is at all as it would have been originally.

http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/MFCSTLA.jpg

On the fuel cut solenoid there are two wires, I only drew one by mistake, not sure where the other one goes to. There is also a oil sender unit (two wires) that maybe should be in this system too (I missed this off the diagram). And in the diagram #4 is I think a glow plug timer not a starter relay.

Here are some real life pictures..

The glow plug timer? The orange on left goes nowhere
http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/qbnIRX1.jpg

Two relays? (the white wire on left relay goes to the IP fuel cut solenoid)
http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/ZOs9sCE.jpg

The glow plug controller with the manual push button wires wired into it
http://i.Upload the image directly to the thread.com/WVuMk71.jpg

From other diagrams I think this system should have a fusible link in it, unless I have misidentified things, I don't think this system currently has one...

So can any autospark geniuses out there help me out?

Thankyou for any help

 

[CAB Marine]

Somewhere here, I'm going to be teaching you to suck eggs, I don't know what you do and don't know and no one with more knowledge has replied after 8 hours so I'll do my best.

If it doesn't turn over, the glow plugs are the least of your problems. Starters don't have relays on most engines...they have solonoids, you seem to have drawn one above your starter. A solonoid is like a relay but bigger, relays tend to be small and square and solonoids big and round. Relays go "click" and solonoids go "clunk".

Basically, when you turn the ignition key, the solonoid should fire a spinning cog at a matching cog on the starter motor which makes the flywheel spin until the engine starts. The vehicle starts, you let go of the key, the key springs back a stop, the solonoid disengages the starter motor and it stops spinning.

So, if you are not cranking, does it go "clunk?"

If it does, have you tried smacking the start solonoid and starter motor liberally with a bfo hammer? A "clunk" with no cranking is usually a sign of a sticking starter. A hammer will unstick it more often than not, at least temporarily.

If there is no "clunk" then you have either a flat battery or a wiring fault. If the battery is good, first check the earth strap (from the -ve terminal of the battery to the chassis). If that looks good, you will need a friend to turn the key whilst you stick your voltmeter between the +ve of the starter and any convenient area of clean metal that doesn't contain fuel. If you get a sensible reading and no "clunk" the solonoid is not playing. Is it hot to the touch? There may be an internal short. You can try a bfo hammer in case it is jammed but it's probably time to think about a rebuilt starter motor. If there is no reading on the starter motor and the battery is good, you have an issue with the wiring or switch.

If I have misinterpreted your post and the engine is turning over but not firing, is the diesel bled through the system and up to the injectors properly?

If you are still stuck, I'll come fix it for free in return for return flights and a weeks accommodation!

 

[UKMeterman]

Just something to bear in mind. The starter battery will melt ANYTHING that accident shorts it out, be that wire, finger rings or spanner. You have an interesting project that should be easy to fix, to ensure you your fingers don't need the attention of a surgeon I would suggest asking a local auto electrician to help....

 

[MissOrange]

CABmarine, I can suck eggs, and I appreciate your help. I'll let you know if I win the lottery for some flights

Prior to me removing the injection pump from the vehicle the starter was great, there was a clunk and a start. Im resonably certain the reason its not starting, clunking, cranking or currently even clicking is because I have a) not connected wires that should be, and b)I have removed some excessive wiring that was helping me to be confused. In the diagram I have hand drawn, the wires connected up have remained in that position from before removing the IP, I have not touched those. But between the two relays (I think they are relays?) there was a couple of wires joining them that I removed (because the 'couple of wires' was a metre long, and soldered with other wires that were disconnected) also the ? wires from the ignition, there could be one wire that should be reconnected, but as of yet I am unsure as continuity tests suggest its connected to few different wires. I can put up more pictures if thats helpful.
Here is a picture af the kind of starter in the motor(not mine but same model), the 'box' - solenoid? on top is the box I have drawn in the diagram that has wires connected to it.
http://asavage.dyndns.org/ftp/Nissan/Maxima/LD28_Starter_03b.jpg

I haven't connected the injector lines up yet as I want crank it to bleed the lines. I will check with a voltmeter for power to the solenoid and post here tomorrow as I have to get to work.

 

[davesparks]

In the pictures the small metal cylindrical item is a higher current N/O solenoid of a rather cheap and unreliable design. I'm having no end of trouble with this design of solenoid on my landrover.

The larger bolts on left and right are the contacts and the smaller ones on top are the coil.

 

[PEG]

My my,i can hear that music from the "A team" playing in the background...Your starter,should have a solenoid attached,but may still have a relay between that and the ignition/start switch,you can bring a 12V feed to that solenoid to test operation,then check the associated relay (probably one of the smaller Lucas type 5 pin ones,in pic). If you have a glow plug control unit,depending on type,it may have inputs from engine temperature etc,or starter feed,after glow,timer lights or many other things,we really need info on that yoke. Your fuel cut-off device,if two pin,will be vehicle earth (Neg) and 12V to operate. I am guessing,the larger canister relay is operating the glow-plugs. The smaller,bulkhead mount Lucas type relay,is of a breed once popular on inertia starters,and may be in the start circuit. I truly wish you were round the corner,i'd rather be helping you than watch the shee-ite on our TV...One more tip i can give you,is do not use your Voltmeter,unless you are checking an actual voltage,use a good test lamp. You will get 12V through relay coils etc,and this will only fudge the issue. Happy hunting :conehead:

 

[MissOrange]

Yep its old enough to be around for the A team, but she's not quite Mr T yet.


Glow plug controller has the push button switch wired to it, so I think that makes it mostly useless as its not controlling timer?

I have a couple of wires from the oil temp sender, currently only one wire looks from continuity test to be connected to one of the GP relays.

Fuel cut solenoid - 1 wire to a relay, and acc to continuity test the other wire goes to a wire from the direction of the ignition (I have 3 mystery wires in this set of wires that I can trace up to the fuse box and ignition, some of the mystery wires could be old Bedford wires that are no longer used.

The cannistor relay, it makes sense its controlling the glowplugs. However, the ignition wire and the starter solenoid wire are both on the same post, and there's no small wires to do the 'switching' if I understand this right. So maybe the relay isnt doing its relay job right now?Also as the two Lucas relays are connected to each other and then the solenoid I wonder if they should also be connected to the cannistor relay.

I'll be out with the voltmeter and a look of confusion again tomorrow.

Thanks for your help PEG