Posting a message to the forum will remove the above advertisement

Discuss testing existing installations to current edition of BS 7671 in the Electrical Forum area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

Please make sure you checkout our forum sponsors, many do discounts for members and, they keep the forum free to use.
  1. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    A question, if you please...

    When testing an existing installation BS 7671 states that it should be tested to the current edition of regs, and that doesn't necessarily mean the installation will be dangerous if wired previous to that edition.

    My question is, how should you code for no RCD protection for additional protection? Is this, in all cases, a code 2 observation?

    I'm still gaining experience in testing and inspection and currently sitting my 2394/95. So, in short, no snide answers:D
     
  2. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    That is a judgement call for the inspector to make. Personally I can see circumstances where it would warrant a C2 observation and also circumstances where it would warrant a C3 observation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    That was my thoughts on it tbh. So for instance, where I might C2 a shower without RCD protection I'd probably only C3 a bathroom light fitting/switch. I'm talking purely domestic here btw.

    I wouldn't mind your thoughts on coding socket outlets without RCD protection, in my mind I could see reasons for C2, supplying portable outdoor equipment. Do you code the circuit as whole or the sockets individually which would more likely to be used for such?

    Thanks for the reply.
     
  4. Des 56
    Offline

    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    [QUOTE="Dave the spark

    I wouldn't mind your thoughts on coding socket outlets without RCD protection, in my mind I could see reasons for C2, supplying portable outdoor equipment. Do you code the circuit as whole or the sockets individually which would more likely to be used for such?

    Thanks for the reply.[/QUOTE]


    I would suggest your thoughts on various coding for your "own" perception of the dangers of each situation is exactly the way to proceed with the gaining of experience of test and inspect
    If the decision making is allied with competence that would seem to make the ideal inspector

    regards the socket circuit question
    I think the circuit has a whole would now have to be coded
    Although at the time of original installation,the likely to supply outdoor equipment may suggest an individual outlet needing RCD protection
    The improvement you recomend should bring the whole of the circuit to current requirements
     
  5. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Hmm, you want to test to the current edition, then state you can see reasons to use code 2 for something that isn't a requirement in the current edition, and hasn't been a requirement for over 10 years?
    Also, unless the installation is either Horticultural or Agricultural, there is not now and never has been a requirement for a socket circuit to be provided with RCD protection.

    To my mind, any observations should make reference to a particular Regulation that is not being complied with.
     
  6. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    The absence of rcd protection needs a minimum C3 entry and as already stated this is down to the inspector. I agree I would C2 the socket being used for equipment out of doors but would C3 the shower.
     
  7. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
  8. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Why on the domestic eicr inspection schedule then, does it ask for provision of additional protection by a 30mA RCD for all socket outlets of rating of 20A or less?
    I'm genuinely interested and keen to learn but I think your post had an air of pomposity about it. Apologies if I've taken it the wrong way.

    Thanks for the replies fellas, I realise coding has a degree of ambiguity and personal preference. I'm just trying to be clear in my head as to a consensus for certain observations.
     
  9. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    That's why the best practice guide comes in handy as you can point customers at it......
     
  10. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    I'll have a read at that tonight while I'm studying for my 2395 written. I've passed 4/5 exams so far for the 2394/95 so this is my last one and I'm hoping for a first time clean sweep
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Wilko
    Offline

    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Good luck Dave !
     
  12. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Cheers Wilko, I'll update this thread after Wednesday. Although it'll probs be another 7-8 weeks before I get a result
     
  13. DPG
    Offline

    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    I'm confused by your post here I must admit.
    Daz
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    You aren't alone there.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Thank God. Thought it was just me!o_O
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Vortigern
    Offline

    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    Hi, yes well this is, as described by STROMA tech support, "a very grey area" He said at the ELEX show he spoke with NIC, NAPIT and others and no one agreed at all on classification of codes. We had to make the same judgement on EICR for commercial buildings and discussed it on this forum. I nearly got a new ****hole ripped in the process. I am pretty thick skinned so didn't worry about it too much. There are pretty well no RCDs throughout four large buildings which finally we classified as C3 throughout. But there were good reasons for this. I have (I think) attached an analysis of Best Practice guide IV the green bits are about RCDs. Just parsed all the mentions into a spreadsheet then to PDF.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    One thing to remember about the Best Practice Guides (aside from the fact that it's merely the opinion of the Electrical Safety Council (campaigning under the name Electrical Safety First) and as such only a guide) is that they only deal with domestic installations.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Vortigern
    Offline

    Vortigern Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    England
    Business Name:
    F.H. Electrical
    A very interesting point indeed!
     
  19. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    As far as I am aware, it does not specify 'all sockets outlets' in the inspection schedule.
    My understanding, is that it asks for:
    Provision of additional protection by RCD not exceeding 30mA:
    Socket-outlets rated at 20A or less, unless exempt (411.3.3).
    The reason it asks for this to be checked, is because the current edition of the Regulations requires all LV socket-outlets rated at 20A or less to be provided with 30mA RCD protection, except those labelled or otherwise identified as being for specific items of equipment.

    Perhaps there is a pomposity about the post?
    This could be because to my mind, any report should be accurate and specify exactly what (if anything) is wrong.
    For instance in the scenario you proposed in your OP, my observation would be something like:
    Lack of RCD protection for socket-outlets as per BS7671 Reg. 411.3.3. Code C3 or C2.
    I would not make an observation regarding the lack of RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors, as there is no longer such a requirement.
    I would also not make an observation regarding the lack of RCD protection for socket circuits, unless I was inspecting an Agricultral/Horticultral installation.
    I would most certainly not make the observation that I have seen made by some: "No RCD in Fuse Box. Code C2."
    The reason I have put code C2 or C3, is because my choice of code would depend on whether the installation complied with the requirements at the time of design/construction.
    If it did not comply, code C2.
    If it did comply, code C3.
     
  20. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    I'm sorry but that is a nonsense. How can you suggest that one identical non-compliance is more/less dangerous than the other simply because of when it was done?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  21. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Simple reason is, because that's what the current Regulations say.
    If I am to conduct an inspection in accordance with the current Regulations, then I have to take on board what those Regulations say.
    I cannot to my mind ignore them, just because I believe they are wrong.
     
  22. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    No they don't.
     
  23. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Lol.
    I see you continue to disagree with myself, your registration body and every other registration body in the country.
    Knock yourself out.
     
  24. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    I'm sorry but where does it suggest anywhere that a non-compliance should be coded differently depending on whether it was permissible at the time of installation? And for that matter, given that you have claimed it, where have the NICEIC suggested that?
     
  25. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    There are a number of places where such is suggested.
    BS7671, BPGs, advice and guidance from various bodies such as the IET, NICEIC, etc.
    The NICEIC just as every other registration body in the country direct their members to the BPGs for guidance.
     
  26. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    The BPG is just that, a guide.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    You seem to be dismissing me by the stupidity of others judging by your first line there.

    Also, BS7671 states that existing installations should be inspected and tested to the current edition, so that's why I asked the question in the OP and that's why you've only served to confuse matters with your response. I guess that's what happens when you're so quick to take an air of superiority.

    I've worked for local authority who wanted me to test to the edition the installation was designed in, now I'm studying to become a better inspector and I've read to the contrary so I was hoping to use the experience of others on what is, after all, a forum to gleen a definitive answer. Is that ok by you?
     
  28. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Some direct quotes from these alleged sources would be useful.
     
  29. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    That Guide is for those who shouldn't be doing EICRs:)
     
  30. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    No, not at all.
    That was just me commenting on something that I have seen in the past.

    Yes existing installations should inspected and tested to current editions of the Regulations, which is why I queried the suggestion to use a code C2 for a non-compliance with a requirement that ceased to exist in 2008.
    I apologise for any confusion or feelings of inferiority caused by my post.

    If it were the case that you were being asked to conduct an Initial Verification on an installation designed to an earlier version of the Regulations, then yes you would be expected to conduct your Inspection and Testing to ensure compliance with that earlier version.

    If the Local Authority is asking you to Inspect and Test an existing installation to an earlier version, there is no reason from a legal view point why you could not do so.
    If I were to conduct such an Inspection, I would be recording the fact that the Inspection has been conducted to the earlier version and that there may be non-compliances with the current version which may render the installation unsafe for continued use.
    Good luck with your quest for a definitive answer.
     
  31. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Right, let's start again. I'm not here to bicker with anyone and I'm always happy to take heed of others experience.

    Genuine question here, which requirement ceased to exist in 2008?

    Thanks.
     
  32. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    I am certain that you are just as able as I am to read the guidance in the BPGs and spot examples.
    One example that springs to mind is in relation to lack of RCD protection for circuits of a location containing a bath or shower.
    The BPG advises a code C3 where the location has supplementary bonding, whereas code C2 if there is no supplementary bonding.
     
  33. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    The requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors.
     
  34. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    So it changed to the all encompassing RCD protection for sockets outlets of 20amp and below? Therefore you would C3 as it's not my place to opine whether it can or will be used to supply outdoor equipment?
     
  35. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I think you need to stop referring to the BPG.
     
  36. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    What is the BPG?
     
  37. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Best Practice Guide, essentially a Guide to guide people who aren't competent to do EICRs.
     
  38. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Best Practice Guide, published by the Electrical Safety Council, which I believe may be now known as Electrical Safety First or something similar.
    What Westwood has not mentioned, is that all of the registration bodies in the U.K. advise their members to use the BPGs for guidance.
     
  39. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I have never been advised to have this Guide, maybe the Bodies recommend it to those who need a bit of "guidance".
     
  40. Dave the spark
    Offline

    Dave the spark learning all the time

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Of course, I just couldn't get the abbreviation
     
  41. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    To an extent yes.
    There were two major changes intended to remove ambiguity.
    First being the phrase "could reasonably be expected" was removed, the second being a requirement for all mobile (portable) equipment used outdoors to be provided with RCD protection irrespective of the method of connection to the supply.
    However, as it was a requirement in both the 15th and the 16th editions for a socket-outlet which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors, many installations without such RCD protection would not have complied with the Regulations in force at the time of their design/construction.
    As such there would be nothing preventing a code C2 being applied.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  42. spinlondon
    Offline

    spinlondon Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Harlow Essex
    Been a while since I checked, but it used to be, and likely still is the case, that all of the registration bodies' websites will have a link or a download option for the BPGs.
     
  43. Risteard
    Offline

    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    In other words it doesn't suggest that the coding should be based on installation date so my point stands.
     
  44. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    It is not a required document, the only Guide I have been asked to obtain is the Only Site Guide which is a total waste of money as it sits on the shelf never opened.
     
  45. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I don't do EICR's.
    I have been reading this thread, but can't quite understand what the recent debate is about.

    A) Is it on one side, that an installation should be inspected & tested to the edition of BS7671 that applied at the time that the installation was installed.

    B) Whilst the other, that an installation should be inspected & tested to the current edition of BS7671, irrespective of the date of installation.

    C) The classification codes, should be applied accordingly as in A).

    Just curious?
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - testing existing installations Forum Date
Metrel insulation testing issue Electrical Forum Today at 3:05 AM
Testing off-peak circuits during on-peak period Electrical Forum Yesterday at 10:18 AM

Share This Page

  • Electricians Directory Post a Domestic Job Post a Commercial Job