Thermodynamics....

[Berneray]

Not seen any mention of this for a while....so I thought I'd post....

Whats the latest gossip on these......

Reason I'm asking. I got a pre recorded message on my land line last Saturday at 11.30 pm....(at night).....extolling the benefits....

So I pressed "2" on my phone.

And sure enough I got a call on Monday from a call centre telling me I could save 70% of my bills and join a Government Scheme which meant I need not pay a "single penny" toward my system....

So never wanting to pass over a great deal I agreed to an appointment.

And last night an overweight shiny suited slip-on shoe wearing salesman turned up and blatantly lied, bull****t*d and tried to con his way into getting us to sign up for a pv and thermal panel system for £14500 while my wife and I sat there pretending we knew nothing.

So this morning I reported the company to RECC.......as he broke at least 70% of the code.....

Reason for this post.....apparently now the new generation of Thermodynamic panels are so efficient they can do 100% of both your hot water and central heating needs 24 hours a day seven days a week.......

We've stay clear of them........is there anyone one on here selling them and if so do they actually work...

 

[telectrix]

name and shame the company. and fyi, 11.30pm usually is at night.

 

[Berneray]

I would name and shame ......but if I do it get them higher on google searches......

So I''ll let you guess.....

E...Blank....Blank.... H...blank....blank...blank Renewables

 

[Worcester]

Yes they work - in Portugal

In the UK our climate is very different, as I understand it they have no defrost cycle so just imaging what happens when it gets to an air temperature of <3°C and 90% humidity ...

They recently lost their court appeal against MCS 'striking them off', and have consistently refused to offer them up for independant CoP certification.
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rmodynamics-panels-loses-judicial-review.html

 

[Silly Sausage]

3rd(?) law of thermodynamics...Entropy increases.
We try our best.

 

[Berneray]

So am I wrong in thinking......if company has a thermodynamic page on their website....then maybe just maybe you need to be a bit wary.....

 

[Worcester]

Guess what --- not members of RECC ! :cowboy:
Nor MCS !! :cowboy:


Did they leave you any paperwork including the name of the installer company? Because that company is also breaking RECC's rules:cowboy:

 

[Worcester]

Of course you could argue that removing the latent heat of water as it changes state from liquid to solid (fusion) increases the performance of the module

 

[Worcester]

We keep looking at it. If and when we can have hard evidence that it works we will add it to out offerings, until then we are steering clear.

I know a couple of the other respected members on here have dabbled with it. - We await their results

 

[Worcester]

On top of all the above, they are also in breach of the LAW (The Companies Act 2006)

Well here are 7 items that a company or service provider is legally required to be easily, directly and permanently accessible on their website:
1. The Name: The name of company/service provider must be easily accessible on the site. Should the company’s trading name be different from the given name this must be clearly stated and the trading name must also be provided – e.g. ‘Border Crossing Media Holdings Limited is the trading name of Border Crossing Media.’
2. A Contact Email Address: You must supply a contact email address – even if you have a contact form there must be a separate email address easily available.
3. A Geographic Address: This can be an office/shop address where the company or service provider operates. If there is a separate registered address for the company this must be supplied too. A PO Box is not sufficient as a geographical address.
4. The Company Registeration Number and Place of Registeration: A company must clearly state their registeration number and also the place the company is registered. – e.g. ‘Border Crossing Media Holdings Ltd is a company registered in Scotland with company number SC 308 978'.
5. Professional Association Details: If the business or a representative is a member of any trade or professional associatation you must supply the membership details and any associated registeration numbers.
6. VAT Number: If your company is VAT registered you must provide the VAT Number – this is for all VAT registered companies and not solely e-commerce traders.
7. Clear and Explicit Prices: Any prices given must be clearly stated and show whether prices include any VAT, tax or delivery charge.

 

[Berneray]

We are with Worcester......

If we would not put it in our own home....then we will not offer it to our customers...

 

[Gavin A]

Yes they work - in Portugal

In the UK our climate is very different, as I understand it they have no defrost cycle so just imaging what happens when it gets to an air temperature of <3°C and 90% humidity ...

They recently lost their court appeal against MCS 'striking them off', and have consistently refused to offer them up for independant CoP certification.
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rmodynamics-panels-loses-judicial-review.html

not really fair.

MCS has only just agreed a fair standard on which to test them - they wanted to test them in the same situation as ASHP - ie no solar gain, and no wind. The panels largely work via wind and solar gain, so it's not surprising that the thermodynamic panel companies refused to be tested under those criteria.

tbh I'm surprised at your position on this Worcester. The only reason they aren't MCS certified is MCS doesn't have a category through which to adequately certify them, in light of that what were the companies involved supposed to do - not sell them at all, or attempt to sell them via the category that was closest to what they were doing?

Give it a year or so and they will be MCS certified, at which point presumably viewpoints will change and the technology will suddenly become respectable despite nothing actually having changed in it between now and then. I'm sure you're technical enough not to need to wait for MCS to give its approval before determining if the technology is viable or not.

In technical terms when implemented properly they should have a significantly greater average COP when used for water heating than ASHP because they benefit directly from solar when the sun's out, and have no fan to power the rest of the time. They're not a panacea, but should have a significant niche market within the UK where they are the most appropriate and environmentally friendly option, particularly when matched with solar PV to supply the power.

Yes we intend to start selling and installing these panels early next year, I'm investing in the F-Gas training required to do so, and should have a test unit running through this winter to see how they actually work through a UK winter. We're actually running this in a way that allows it to both heat water and supply some background space heating to see what the potential actually is for this.

To put it another way, it makes a lot more environmental sense to me to use PV generated energy to run a thermodynamic panel than it does to use it directly via an immersion heater and storage heater (especially via non flicker regs compliant immersion diversion devices that make the grid supply dirtier for everyone on that phase from the same transformer).

We'd be aiming at an installed price in the region of £2.5-3k for the retrofit units, a bit more for full new cylinders, or combined price with 4-5kW solar PV and controller of maybe 9-10k.

 

[Gavin A]

Reason for this post.....apparently now the new generation of Thermodynamic panels are so efficient they can do 100% of both your hot water and central heating needs 24 hours a day seven days a week.......

this obviously is unlikely to be true unless maybe you live in a proper passive house with negligible heating demand, erm or maybe you have a fair few installed, in which case £14500 probably isn't such a bad price... even then though it's not really going to cut it alone for space heating in the depths of winter in the vast majority of UK housing stock.

 

[Worcester]

@GavinA, our position is really quite simple:

I cannot give our prospective clients a predictable ouptut (even within 10%).

For all our other technologies, Solar PV, Solar Thermal, Air and Ground Source Heat Pumps, and Biomass there are established, proven methods of calculating outputs and hence performance predictions - the methodologies of calculating this are and were available before any MCS method has been drawn up, have been proven in the field, and are documented by respected authorities.

Despite repeated requests from the suppliers of thermodynamic systems, they have consistently failed to provide any such methodology that even has simple peer review. As such AT THIS MOMENT, I cannot confidently advise my customers what to expect from their investment.

I am not closed minded, I am aware of our professional reputation.

When evidence of outputs under UK operating conditions that stand up to scrutiny is presented, then we will add this type of technology to our offerings.

Until then our proffesional indemnity insurance premiums, and risk to our reputation are too high to justify the risk of miss-selling. We are aware of some heating installers that got their designs so wrong the the clients claims against them to put them systems right right caused them to wind up their businesses. At this moment whith this technology it would be a brave company that would take on that risk.

 

[Gavin A]

I take your point, but would dispute that the methodology for solar PV, water heating, or heat pump predictions was anything like within 10% accuracy when MCS started... ok maybe for worcester which is fairly central, certainly not for much of the rest of the country - it was around 20% out for inverness for solar PV and water heating, for example (even if it were accurate for Sheffield).

Or how are you estimating the proportion of electricity generation consumed in the house? No MCS methodology for that, yet presumably you are offering some form of guidance on that to your clients?

How about the Immersun estimates on savings? I'm not sure what they ended up with in the end, but their first attempts were incredibly bad, and highly misleading. I don't see that you're applying these rules consistently tbh, as either you repeated their false figures, or you devised your own methodology to calculate those savings yourself, or you just didn't give anything more than a ball park idea anyway. Either way MCS hasn't certified them, and BRE haven't carried out performance tests on them.

If we're talking water heating alone, then the maximum it can save is the hot water consumption level in the house. If running it as much as possible from solar PV, the question really is how much of the time will it be drawing more power than the PV is supplying, which can be minimised via the use of timers, or smart controllers monitoring export levels. When this isn't available then it should be roughly the same cost as gas once the COP is involved.

I guess I'm going to have to go through our records to work out roughly how many days wouldn't have sufficient solar input to allow it to run for free to help produce some relatively accurate predictions of costs, and see how this matches up with the test data, but effectively the figures can be worked out fairly accurately without needing test data - I doubt I'd have a problem getting it to within 10% accuracy. At an educated guess, I'd expect it to be around an 80-90% saving over gas when used in conjunction with solar PV, vs approximately 50-70% for solar water heating, and probably something similar for an immersun depending on hot water use, electricity use and size of pv system.

Installing in conjunction with PV really changes the situation, I'd not install one without PV at all for anyone on the main gas grid, and probably only for someone with all electric water heating.

Basically when run in daylight it will have a significantly better COP for hot water than ASHP across the year, I've seen COP curves for one of these units (and posted them on here) with and without solar gain, which clearly demonstrate this, so I can't justify recommending an ASHP where this would be more appropriate just because I can't completely nail down the figures to show exactly how much better it will be.

ps respected authorities? Like BRE? The organisation that came up with the sap estimates for solar PV, or sap ratings for sold walls that are so far out from reality that they've had to apply a massive fudge factor to them for Green Deal, and where the actual savings from some pilot schemes are miles out from the estimates... forgive me if I'm not inclined to wait for them to come up with a method to estimate savings accurately, it could be a long wait.

 

[Gavin A]

I would agree that space heating's a different kettle of fish to water heating.

You're right that there have been too many instances of companies who don't know what they're doing installing stuff like exhaust air heat pumps and expecting them to actually produce energy as opposed to merely recylling it, then wonder why the systems end up running largely from the immersion heater because the heat load of the building exceeded the maximum theoretically possible energy the heat pump could possibly extract from the outgoing air.

So I'd agree that it's important to get this right for anything involving heating. In the test install we're doing, it's being used in conjunction with a wood burning stove with back boiler, and they still have the existing gas boiler integrated, and there have been no promises made about heat delivery from the panel - it's primarily there for water heating, but may as well use additional heat if it's available when the power is available from the solar pv.

 

[solarfred]

Lot's appear to be selling in Ireland where money is in short supply and the climate is slightly worse than UK so a "solar panel that works in wind and rain and at night" goes down quite well. I have some real life data but it is not scientific as there are several "models" and they are not comparing apples and apples.
Most confirm they have hot water 24/7 as per the salesman patter. But then so do I with an immersion and it didn't cost me €4,000+.

 

[phil_davison]

We've installed a couple of the Energie systems in the North East. The data being collected at the moment seems to suggest that they've been mega during the summer months, constant supply of hot water, but we have had 1 phone in the last week saying that it doesn't seem to be getting up to full temp. Overall though the customer is very happy with the system and is glad we've fitted a by-pass valve on his combi to flick when the the TD isn't up to temp.
We've got another install going in this week at the request of the customer, so we'll have even more info to talk about in the near future. Its not something that we are mass installing but its a technology defo worth looking at in my view, even without the current MCS approval.

 

[v lowery]

We've installed a couple of the Energie systems in the North East. The data being collected at the moment seems to suggest that they've been mega during the summer months, constant supply of hot water, but we have had 1 phone in the last week saying that it doesn't seem to be getting up to full temp. Overall though the customer is very happy with the system and is glad we've fitted a by-pass valve on his combi to flick when the the TD isn't up to temp.
We've got another install going in this week at the request of the customer, so we'll have even more info to talk about in the near future. Its not something that we are mass installing but its a technology defo worth looking at in my view, even without the current MCS approval.

hi Phil, you fitted in the NE was it for a company why did you need to fit thermodynamics back to the combi boiler all paperwork says "hot water 24/7". I have had system since 2012 and its costing £500 a year to run and after checking mains gas bill before fitting my hot water bill was £140 or less. any resend updates from customers. thanks.