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M

Mattty

Hi,

Has anyone come across the Ultima solar hybrid panels? I have just come across a quote stating that a 3.84kW system will likely have an annual output of 5,333kWh per annum. This seems a bit optimistic, but I am not familiar with the technology and wondered if anyone here is?

cheers

Matt
 
Hi,

Has anyone come across the Ultima solar hybrid panels? I have just come across a quote stating that a 3.84kW system will likely have an annual output of 5,333kWh per annum. This seems a bit optimistic, but I am not familiar with the technology and wondered if anyone here is?

cheers

Matt

Highly unlikely in most parts of the UK.

You'd need to be on the South Coast, on the most perfect roof: unshaded, South-facing, 35-degree slope and with a high-efficiency inverter and have an unusually sunny year to have much chance of getting close to that figure.
Even the (very expensive) Sanyo panels only (maybe) add 10% to the annual generation compared to typical lower-cost Chinese panels.

But change the roof facing, or the tilt of the solar panels, or add a little shade from a chimney, or locate the array in central England and you'll be a long way short of the claims - probably only half the claimed figure.
 
it's more than optimistic, it's a load of rubbish. I've just checked Ultima out, and they only seem to make one panel, the 240Wp poly crystaline model, which could well be decent quality, and does have prisms in the glass to improve performance at lower angles of the sun to the panels, but this is only going to be something like a 5% improvement at most.

though I suppose it might depend a bit on where in the country you are, but even down in cornwall or kent I doubt you'll get anything close to that.
 
it's more than optimistic, it's a load of rubbish........though I suppose it might depend a bit on where in the country you are, but even down in cornwall or kent I doubt you'll get anything close to that.

I agree - it's just that there's bound to be someone come along with an outperfoming system (or with a dodgy device which measures output).

In my area - Cambridgeshire - the large 3.5-4kWp systems with Chinese panels are generally on track to beat their 3000-3500kWh annual SAP2009 generation targets by 10-15% (i.e. 3300-4000kWh annual total).
Sanyo systems about 10% superior to the Chinese (i.e. about 25% above SAP: 3800-4400kWh).
 
5,333kWh? Utter fleshsacks. The most we have seen on one system is approaching 4,500kWh - this was in Cornwall on perfectly south-facing unshaded roof. And this far exceeded all predictions. Exactly what method have they used to come up with that figure?
 
By Hybrid I mean a combined PV and solar thermal system. I have found more information online to suggest that for every 1 degree increase in panel temp then the panel loses 0.5% efficiency and so by cooling the panel, the output can be increased.

They say they have used existing client's outputs and don't use SAP as it's not accurate. Which I find a little alarming. I have spotted a couple of mistakes in their spreadsheet which puts their ROI down from 12% to just below 10%.
 
matched with a heat pump, or just used for straight water heating?

if for water heating then cobblers, as it will have to spend half the time at higher temperatures as the tank heats up.

If as the source for a heat pump, well yes this will have an advantage, but not more than 15% at most, and I'd expect 10% to be more realistic (it wouldn't want to go below 0deg much, or the heat pump efficiency would drop, so the maximum difference in temp would be around 50 deg or 22.5% output difference, but that's only in full sunlight on hot days, the rest of the time it will be significantly less than this, probably more like 5-10% difference.

There are also some inefficiencies due to the temperature difference across the array, which is likely to be upto 10 deg, or 4.5%, and the output for the entire array will be at the lower end of the panel outputs...

not that I'm knocking the hybrid panels - we were all set to start installing them last year when the bottom fell out of the prices for standard panels, and the economics suddenly stopped stacking up. If RHI ever comes in, I'd hope they could be a viable option again.
 
Sanyo systems about 10% superior to the Chinese (i.e. about 25% above SAP: 3800-4400kWh).

Really? Show me the evidence that Sanyo HITS generate 10% more than good quality

Chinese panels in comparable conditions in the UK.

It was thought that Sanyo HITS "would outperform many good quality Chinese solar pv

panels by < 10% annually", but this preconception was a misconception.

Sanyo HITS dont perform particularly well in low light conditions.

We have had a lot of low light conditions in the UK this year,

effecting overall solar pv panel annual generation output.

Many quality Chinese solar pv panels are outperforming Sanyo HITS in North West

England, UK by 5% or more this year.

There is a tendency for the Chinese to be unfairly demoted, against the actual evidence.
 
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I hope Vegelen won't mind me posting this but we have been having a discussion via PMs about Sanyos and their performance. The sites that he is comparing aren't, in my opinion, good examples. The Sanyo site has shading and the Suntech site has none (although how exactly people quantify shading is subjective to say the least). He argued (wrongly in my opinion) that the shading would have very little difference on the yield of the system.

The reason I post this is that this goes completely against all the data that I have. Comparing panel performance in British conditions can provide us with fascinating data and I'm determined to find out which panels are performing best.

I had an idea yesterday where I would go back through PV Sol Expert on all our previous jobs - I would replace the panel with a standard mid-range 'test' panel and then calculate the predicted yield. I can then compare this with our actual results and see which panels perform the best. Could be interesting.
 
Some Solar Panels are good at extracting power in low light than bright light conditions, some the reverse.
Few solar panels are "All things to all men".
Ideally, solar panels have to perform best when the potential for energy generation is optimum i.e in bright light conditions.
In North West England lots of overcast weather is prevalant.
I have been monitoring many local solar systems to see how they perform in different weather / brightness conditions.
I realised that some more expensive solar panels like Sanyo HITS didnt perform very well in low light conditions and were being outperformed by many good quality inexpensive chinese panels.
When the weather became hot and sunny, Sanyo HITS solar systems gained on the cheaper Chinese systems.
Sanyo panels have a low temperature coefficient, thus have lower relative losses as the panels gain in temperature.
But as we dont get much prolonged sunshine, those systems arent outperforming like I would have anticipated.
Many Sanyo solar systems i've looked at around Greater Manchester and the Peak District are underperforming, many cheaper good quality Chinese solar systems with German or Austrian inverters. Many factors are likely to be influencing this.
UK Weather varies significantly as we move around our island. I dont think there is one optimum panel for the whole of the UK but different panels, for different weather micro climates.
If I lived in Cornwall or on the south coast of the Isle of Wight, i'd consider solar panels with lower temperature coefficients like the Sanyo HITS.
In North West England I dont see any virtue in paying the premium for them, because they dont outperform many other cheaper solar panels that extract energy well in low light conditions.
 
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Hi Vegelen

Up North, are you also finding - as a few others have claimed in this dull summer - that Poly panels are actually outperforming both the mono and the HIT panels?

HIT's are outperfoming Mono Chinese by about 10% in my area.
Cambs is quite a warm location in summer, as the met office data shows (note that the map defaults to January, so needs changing to view other months and seasons):
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html

.
 
Hi FB.

I think the exceptionally dull, rainy and overcast weather we've had in North West England has suppressed the generation potential of Sanyo HIT systems locally versus cheaper systems that outperform in low light.

People in other areas of the UK have experienced brighter / warmer weather and are seeing different results.

Cambridge is brighter and warmer than our location close to the Peak District in summer, so I can totally understand the different results you are seeing.

I have been watching good quality Chinese mono crystaline panels versus Sanyo HITS.

I haven't focused as much attention on Polycrystaline panels versus monocrystaline / Sanyo HIT's in our region.

I wonder which solar panels perform best in our cloudy, grey, rainy micro climate?

Anyone fancy setting up an experiment in NW England or Scotland?
 
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In North West England lots of overcast weather is prevalant.
I have been monitoring many local solar systems to see how they perform in different weather / brightness conditions.
I realised that some more expensive solar panels like Sanyo HITS didnt perform very well in low light conditions and were being outperformed by many good quality inexpensive chinese panels.
When the weather became hot and sunny, Sanyo HITS solar systems gained on the cheaper Chinese systems.
Sanyo panels have a low temperature coefficient, thus have lower relative losses as the panels gain in temperature.
But as we dont get much prolonged sunshine, those systems arent outperforming like I would have anticipated.
Many Sanyo solar systems i've looked at around Greater Manchester and the Peak District are underperforming, many cheaper good quality Chinese solar systems with German or Austrian inverters. Many factors are likely to be influencing this.
UK Weather varies significantly as we move around our island. I dont think there is one optimum panel for the whole of the UK but different panels, for different weather micro climates.
If I lived in Cornwall or on the south coast of the Isle of Wight, i'd consider solar panels with lower temperature coefficients like the Sanyo HITS.
In North West England I dont see any virtue in paying the premium for them, because they dont outperform many other cheaper solar panels that extract energy well in low light conditions.

It is difficult to explain my position on this without sounding like a fanboy for Sanyo/Panasonic - but I'll try anyway.

If there really is evidence that Sanyo panels aren't doing as well as standard panels in the north west then this is genuinely fascinating stuff. This is completely contrary to the data that I have been collecting and if there really is a difference in performance for systems just 100 miles away then that really is worth looking at.

However, I am skeptical. Comparing a shading Sanyo system with a clear Suntech system is just plainly bad science so I would need to see more than just a comparison of two systems on PVOutput to convince me. Same goes for a clear Sanyo system and a shaded Suntech system.
 
It is difficult to explain my position on this without sounding like a fanboy for Sanyo/Panasonic

From your data, what do you think you're seeing in your area's climate (which may be different to other parts of the country)?
What does the data - or gut feeling based on experiences - tell you the Sanyo's are doing?
 
I will actually publish all my findings on this site when I have them together.

I am comparing actual results with SAP calcs AND PV Sol estimates. As results come in, things do change a little. Sanyo are clearly performing very well though - although we don't have any Sanyo installs north of the Midlands. From the results I get, I think that the Sanyo panels give a good increase on yield on other systems - perhaps 5% - 10%. Although figures from Linuo are also impressive.

- - - Updated - - -

I will actually publish all my findings on this site when I have them together.

I am comparing actual results with SAP calcs AND PV Sol estimates. As results come in, things do change a little. Sanyo are clearly performing very well though - although we don't have any Sanyo installs north of the Midlands. From the results I get, I think that the Sanyo panels give a good increase on yield on other systems - perhaps 5% - 10%. Although figures from Linuo are also impressive.
 
I have read on several threads of anecdotal evidence that Sanyo outperform the cheap Chinese in sunny conditions but underperform in dull conditions. Although I don’t have definitive evidence myself, I have monitored my 4kw Suntech system almost on a daily basis for a year with 2 other local Sanyo 4kw systems which are registered on PV output. I have noted that most of the time I seem to outperform the Sanyo's on a dull day by about 5%, but sadly the Sanyo's outperform me by 5% on a bright day and 10% on a really sunny day. Of course its the high yeild days which make the big difference so Sanyo should come out well on top.

The outperformance of Sanyo in bright / sunny conditions is not surprising as they use part thin film technology which works better at higher temperatures and as someone already said in this thread the tech spec of Sanyo’s have a a better temperature coefficient.

What I am surprised about though is that Sanyo’s seem to underperform in dull conditions. Again thin film is supposed to give better results (comparatively) by diffused light which suggests they should also be better in dull conditions. If they do underperform in dull conditions, my own theory is simply that their surface area is less and maybe it’s a bit like a large lens camera giving a brighter picture because it can capture more light than a small lens camera in dull conditions.
 
Back on topic.

Might the high annual figure combine the output of the PV with the output of the thermal system, 3500 from the PV and 1833 from the water heated? Seems to add up.
 
My sanyo array produced its best output in April this year, not so sure about the sanyo's anymore thought i would have produced more to date

My sunny beam says May on my other system
 

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