Use of 20AX switches in spurs off ring main

[Toneyz]

Re the argument about above worktop isolators; a lot of my customers didn't like them, so a socket in an adjoining cupboard is sufficient.

Re the OP's question; App 15 is the informative guide to spurs off RFC. Would a 20A DP switch, followed by a 13A socket could be construed as more than outlet? Done it loads myself, but perhaps thats his sparks thinking.

No because the outlet is the socket.you don't count a single switched socket as two.

 

[Toneyz]

"Oh no! Theres a strong burning smell coming from my washing machine.... What do I do?!!?"
"Quick, turn off the power... theres a switch marked washing machine"
"OK, got it.... Wow, that was so easy"

OR

"Oh no! Theres a strong burning smell coming from my washing machine.... What do I do?!!?"
"Quick, turn off the power... Uhhhh…. no switch? … Wheres the consumer unit!"
"Um... Its under the stairs.... behind the bucket... its in a little cupboard... You have to wiggle the latch to get the door open.. Its not got little flicky switches... just pull the fuse"
"Yeh… I think I got it.. which fuse?! Nothings marked!"
"I dunno!.... Oh no... flames!.."

Isolation switches;- Not a requirement, but damn convenient in a crisis.

What about the socket in the cupboard or bank of spurs in a cupboard as I see on a lot of these youtube video's .it's local but you still have the problem if not mounted in the correct position being behind items in cupboards.
I know this is an old-fashioned view or not P.C. but years ago usually the man in the house used to know where the main stop taps for the water, gas and electric were today you go into someone's house and ask as that's usually where the bonding is they don't know same for the isolators for kitchen appliances long have the days gone that the kitchen was a room of functionality we want all these things out if sight.

 

[davesparks]

So what? There is no requirement for isolators anywhere, so the CU can be used.

Well in this particular thread we clearly have a customer who wants isolators installed, so what does it matter whether they are required or not? If the customer wants them fitted they can have them fitted.

 

[davesparks]

How on earth do you switch appliances off when they are not in use if the only means of switching is behind the appliance or turning the whole circuit off at the CU?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I bought a number of 20AX grid switches with printed labels on them e.g. washing machine. These were to put an isolator above the work top for a 13A switched socket under the work top in the utility room. Electrician says no as the spur will be off a 32A ring the switch must be capable of the ring rating not the spur (single 2.5mm2 T+E). I can almost see his point but most suppliers have a range of printed 20AX but none for 32A so you end up with an unlabelled switch or a stuck on label which is not great. Any views on this? Thanks.

The electrician is incorrect.
The rating required for a standard RFC is 20A.
Tell the electrician to read Regulation 433.1.204.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

"Oh no! Theres a strong burning smell coming from my washing machine.... What do I do?!!?"
"Quick, turn off the power... theres a switch marked washing machine"
"OK, got it.... Wow, that was so easy"

OR

"Oh no! Theres a strong burning smell coming from my washing machine.... What do I do?!!?"
"Quick, turn off the power... Uhhhh…. no switch? … Wheres the consumer unit!"
"Um... Its under the stairs.... behind the bucket... its in a little cupboard... You have to wiggle the latch to get the door open.. Its not got little flicky switches... just pull the fuse"
"Yeh… I think I got it.. which fuse?! Nothings marked!"
"I dunno!.... Oh no... flames!.."

Isolation switches;- Not a requirement, but damn convenient in a crisis.

Switches used for emergency switching, must comply with the requirements for emergency switching.
i.e. should be red in colour, placed in a prominent position, must not be able to re-energise whatever has been switched off, etc.

 

[GeorgeCooke]

How on earth do you switch appliances off when they are not in use if the only means of switching is behind the appliance or turning the whole circuit off at the CU?

You don't need to, but if you must the front panel.

 

[telectrix]

if your electrician has an issue with the switches and the supply cable to the load not being protected why no incorporate a FCU module into the grid switch?

or find a different spark, one with more than a single brain cell.

 

[GeorgeCooke]

@Midwest
I agree but the BS7671 then added a regulation to follow manufacturers guidelines which swung the debate from a personal choice to a recommended practice,

So what do you do when the manufacturers guidelines are clearly wrong which is often the case? The example below is from a Cooke & Lewis oven purchased in B & Q only last week.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My understanding, is that BS7671 requires Manufacturer’s instructions to be taken into account.

 

[GeorgeCooke]

if your electrician has an issue with the switches and the supply cable to the load not being protected why no incorporate a FCU module into the grid switch?

or find a different spark, one with more than a single brain cell.

Then you have 2 similar fuses in line, one in the fcu and one in the plug. Pointless.

 

[Darkwood]

@GeorgeCooke

When the manufacturers are 'clearly' wrong then as a professional you make an appropriate decision and if your ever in a situation where you are legally challenged then you can easily in your professional stance show their is an error in the manufacturers guidance, this is not about when the guidelines are clearly in error, this is about the BS7671 telling you to follow manufacturers guidance for which the majority of the time they are not in error thus you should be doing so.

 

[Midwest]

No because the outlet is the socket.you don't count a single switched socket as two.

So the switch don't count as an outlet

 

[richy3333]

Then you have 2 similar fuses in line, one in the fcu and one in the plug. Pointless.

Err, no?!

 

[GeorgeCooke]

Err, no?!

Of course it is pointless. With an overload quite likely both would blow and someone would often not realise and only replace one of them and be puzzled.

 

[littlespark]

So the switch don't count as an outlet

No it doesn’t. An outlet does as it says.... it’s where electricity comes OUT of the wall via a flexible cable to an appliance or equipment. Be that a socket and plug or an FCU

The clue’s in the name.

The only exception to the rule is a double socket.... two outlets being counted as one.

 

[redbarnman]

Thanks for the inputs so far. I don't have an issue with above counter switches - they are a convenience to isolate an appliance before pulling it out and then struggling in to remove the plug from the socket on the back wall. I also like to turn off some items if going away on holiday and this also makes it easy - rather than going to the CU and turning off the whole ring. My debate was more along the lines of 'why do switch suppliers sell a range of switches that can't be used for the function printed on them'. Putting a fused switch above the counter protects the 600mm of cable to the 13A socket, but the appliance plug top 13A fuse is what does the real protection. I reckon 600mm of cable is more reliable than the average white appliance. I will follow up on the reg 433.1.204 suggestion.

 

[littlespark]

Would the electrician be happy just making a joint behind a blank plate and creating a spur down to the socket?
Let him sign it off, then get another spark to replace blank with your DP switch.

Can I just check that this is a regular ring final circuit you are having installed in 2.5mm?

 

[GeorgeCooke]

Putting a fused switch above the counter protects the 600mm of cable to the 13A socket, but the appliance plug top 13A fuse is what does the real protection. I reckon 600mm of cable is more reliable than the average white appliance. I will follow up on the reg 433.1.204 suggestion.

No,wrong. The 13a fuse in the plug (not plug top which is a lid or cover and does not contain a fuse) is to protect the cable from the plug to the appliance, nothing else. Appliances should be internally protected as they are made for an international market connected by Schuko plugs where the only fusing is 16a MCB in the CU.

 

[Midwest]

No,wrong. The 13a fuse in the plug (not plug top which is a lid or cover and does not contain a fuse) is to protect the cable from the plug to the appliance, nothing else. Appliances should be internally protected as they are made for an international market connected by Schuko plugs where the only fusing is 16a MCB in the CU.

I call a plug a plug top, so there.

I thought specifically the design of a BS1363 plug 'top' and its associated BS1362, was to limit the overloading of the RFC. Initially only a 13A (brown) & 3A (red) BS1362 were introduced (all the others are marked black). The 3A fuse was for smaller ccc flexes to table lamps etc. Other flexes should be suitable for the max load of the appliance. Stand to be corrected.