Wetpants Strikes Yet Again ....... GRRRRRRRRRRRR

[ruston]

I don't grudge him that serving his country for twelve years, on not great pay , many not getting a foot in the housing market ect.
I do understand what you are getting at though.

 

[Pete999]

Hello All,

I am sure that we would all agree if that pipework was done by a qualified Plumber or Heating Engineer they don`t deserve to be called a `Tradesman`.

During the years that `Plastic pipe` and fittings have been available I have come across many installations where the pipework has been `thrown in` like this by people who have no concept of `Professional courtesy` towards other Trades because they are NOT Professionals.

The introduction of the various `Plastic` systems has definitely `De-skilled` the Plumbing & Heating Industries and has enabled people who have only the very basic `DIY skills` to work installing Plumbing and Heating systems water pipework.

I am at the end of my working life now because of a severe Back problem and problems with both knees but during the last 52 years not only have I been proud of my workmanship on every job [using Copper tube] that I have done but I have also been proud to be able to say that I have respected and liaised with every other Tradesman / Contractor on site who`s work might be affected by mine [or affect mine] regarding things such as pipework routes / clearances etc.

Because I have always been so proactive regarding liaising with them I would be fairly sure that no other Tradesman / Contractor would ever have had any complaints about Me or my work interfering with theirs - not a bad record for 52 years of working in the Heating, Plumbing & Gas Industries.

As the Plumbers and Heating Engineers who use Copper tube are gradually retiring or `converting` to the flexible pipe systems / are installing `Plastic` systems as specified / supplied by their Employers there will be more and more of this `Throw it in` method of working because Plumbing and Heating water systems will be seen as very easy to install - qualified Tradesmen will not be needed !

Regards,

Chris

Sorry to hear about your back problems Mate, but you are correct, it's not just the Plumbing and heating trade, the electrical trade is deep in the brown stuff as well, apart from the the good ones, there are still many about.

 

[chris murphy]

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with the systems being used. It's more about attitude. Too many people these days simply don't give a t0$$ about anyone or anything else as long as they get their bit done.

And this is a problem that is not just affecting trades. It's part of why I needed to get out of my previous career.

Hello SparkyChick,

I agree that the attitude You described is becoming more common throughout society - unfortunately.

However I am of the opinion that when it comes to people working in the Construction Industry / Electrical, Heating, Plumbing & Gas Trades who are definitely NOT `Tradesmen` or `Tradeswomen` because they either have not attained our qualifications / workmanship / professional attitude by Apprenticeship training and on site experience or from years of `on the tools` training & experience - that `Don`t care about anyone else` attitude is often more prevalent.

If people start off `installing` either Electrical systems or Heating & Plumbing systems by what We would call `Throwing them in` / very poor workmanship using either `Plastic pipework` or Electrical cables they will never have any pride in their work - and I think that if one has no pride in their own workmanship it often follows that they could not care less about anyone else`s work.

In my opinion it takes a `Professional approach` to work for a person to have `Professional courtesy` and a respectful attitude towards other Tradesmen / Tradeswomen.

Regards,

Chris

 

[stevethesparks]

I don't know if it's just me but I have seen more leaks in recent times with plastic than I ever have with good old copper.
I piped my own heating system in my house must be 25 years ago, never had a leak yet.

As for plumbers sharing my routes, it all happens too often.
I'm sure that the plumbers course will have similar regs to our own whereas spacings are concerned.

As for the abortion on the joists, again have seen it too often.
I'm amazed how floors have not fallen through with some jobs. Maybe in time?

 

[Wilko]

If they were my joists, Someone would be replacing them!

That's criminal. Holes, notches all on top of each other on what are relatively small joists anyway. There is more hole than there is wood.

Is there no thought? No discussion?
No common sense? No knowledge?

This is just basic stuff, what is the world coming to?

Plenty of quality Plumbers about, just not one within shouting distance of this job. We can rest assured the last plumber was not @Last plumber

 

[chris murphy]

I don't know if it's just me but I have seen more leaks in recent times with plastic than I ever have with good old copper.
I piped my own heating system in my house must be 25 years ago, never had a leak yet.

As for plumbers sharing my routes, it all happens too often.
I'm sure that the plumbers course will have similar regs to our own whereas spacings are concerned.

As for the abortion on the joists, again have seen it too often.
I'm amazed how floors have not fallen through with some jobs. Maybe in time?

Hello stevethesparks,

You are right there is nothing like Copper tube and fittings for small bore Heating and Plumbing / Domestic Gas pipework regarding longevity and quality of materials.

I have been a long time Member of the `Copper Club` - run for decades by the `UK Copper Board` - now called `Copper Initiative` - an Industry Body operated to promote the use of Copper tube in Heating, Plumbing & Gas Installations - plus many other systems / Industries.

They also produce a lot of Training information which is used in Colleges for Apprenticeship training.

In case anyone is interested here is a link to the Organisation:

https://copperplumbing.org.uk/sites...ttachments/copper_initiative_-_who_we_are.pdf

I have been a life long proponent of Copper tube from a Professional Tradesman`s point of view there is nothing to beat it for small bore pipework.

However I will admit that the cost has become prohibitive for some people for even the average size Plumbing and Heating systems - supposedly because of various `Supply & Demand` issues worldwide.

I installed my Heating system 30 years ago and although I am on my 2nd Boiler [ Potterton Netaheat Electronic lasted 26 years and was still working when replaced] and I have replaced all of the Radiators for Convector Radiators [30 years ago they were just double flat panels] the original circulating system Copper pipework is still in place.

And because I have always had a `double dose` of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor in the water the pipework is still as clear as it could be - no sign of any sludge or other `fouling` when I cut into pipework when replacing Radiators in every room.

As even though the Boiler and Radiators will need replacing again in perhaps 15 - 20 years the Copper pipework on my Heating system would probably last for another 50 years if it was protected regularly by replacing the Corrosion Inhibitor - in fact it would have to be badly neglected or actually damaged to cause problems serious enough for it to have to be completely replaced.

Although I realise that entire `Plastic` pipework systems would be replaced perhaps after a maximum of 20 years or get gradually replaced over time with alterations / new Radiators etc. - to even think about `Plastic` Heating pipework lasting for anything like 30 - 40 - 50 years is laughable.

With regard to Joists - I have sometimes found entire First floor hallways where the joists could not be notched for my pipework because of the multitude of old & current Electrical cable holes [no pun intended] - existing Plumbing / Heating pipe notches and Iron Gas pipes.

Regards,

Chris

 

[JK-Electrical]

Didn't know a big rusty nail was what hep20 recommended as pipe clips nowadays! If the person paying the bill is none the wiser...

The homeowner is a retired building engineer and no one's fool. When he sees this on Monday he won't be happy, that's for sure.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Plenty of quality Plumbers about, just not one within shouting distance of this job. We can rest assured the last plumber was not @Last plumber

While the law of averages would decree that not all plumbers are selfish, inconsiderate, irritating ----s, I am, however, finding it increasingly difficult to use the words quality and plumber in the same sentence.

 

[JK-Electrical]

How stupid have you got to be to do that?

Exceedingly.

 

[johnduffell]

I agree there's a correlation between good plumbers and those using soldered copper, despite the obvious advantages of copper, plastic has some advantages and works well in many circumstances. I won't list the copper benefits, just the plastic.
Having a single run with no joints to reach radiator is a boon, as sparks you would avoid joints especially inaccessible ones. Also we know every elbow adds resistance, noise, and possibly even cavitation, with plastic it's all smooth bends along the runs. Regarding water hammer, it can be worse on plastic, but with a bit of give in the system it can take up the slack.
When fitting into joists, you would generally be able to drill rather than notch with plastic, which is better given how much notching damages joists.
And who resents being able to simply lift the rad off the wall? Not a common thing to do, but you got to take the benefits where they come
Use the best material for the job!

 

[Wilko]

The downstairs rads at mine are all plastic in conduit (mostly) in screed. It's about 10 year old and 2 of 6 have so far failed. Upstairs are soldered copper and no leaks. Ho hum.

 

[123]

Whether plastic or copper, so much still comes down to good workmanship. So many plumbers I see never bother themselves pressure testing or the like. Have seen 2 new builds this year with screed floors having to be opened up due to leaks. One done is copper by and old hand, and one done in plastic by a young gun in his mid 30's.

 

[johnduffell]

The downstairs rads at mine are all plastic in conduit (mostly) in screed. It's about 10 year old and 2 of 6 have so far failed. Upstairs are soldered copper and no leaks. Ho hum.

Oh dear! Failed in what way, just don't warm up? Not sure whether it's correlation or causation