What is a Domestic Installer ?

[Geoffsd]

I am sick of these " domestic installers " and " be an electrician in four week wonders " , i served a four year apprenticeship and didn,t sit in a college class listening to a guy with patches on his arms to allow these schemes to cheapen my trade , Gas installers wouldn,t stand for it so why do we ?

That's the way it is. I understand your resentment but if you are a 'fully qualified' electrician then you can take solace in the knowledge that you are more qualified than the DI but to do what they do presumably they are 'qualified' enough. Do people with no knowledge of electrical installation quit being a bus driver, for example, take a four week course and then have the competence to go into people's houses and do electrical work? Surely they must know what they are doing to a certain extent before taking the course.

Do 'fully qualified' Motor Engineers complain about Kwik-Fit as Four Week Wonder Brake and Exhaust Fitters or Neurosurgeons complain about Nurses?

Apart from that as long as 'Joe Bloggs' (sorry Joe) is allowed to buy the parts and do electrical work himself with absolutely no training and ABSOLUTELY NO knowledge of the regulations - albeit with inspection by the LABC if they know and bother to subit their work - then, surely, the fact that a DI has had some training is better than the situation before Part P.

Until the Government make electrical work illegal for the public then the situation will not change but even that would not solve your problem.
As far as I know this is not going to happen. Part P was introduced under the pretense of safety but more lives could be saved in a year by banning motor transport for one day. That's not going to happen either.

 

[migspat30]

whatever , i'm sick of it anyway , if things get any worse i'm chucking it and getting a job in asda at night

 

[gibo]

whatever , i'm sick of it anyway , if things get any worse i'm chucking it and getting a job in asda at night

you could have worked at asda when you were 16. you missed the boat. what gives you the right to retrain as a shelf stacker now?

 

[gibo]

my point is that there is nothing to stop me going to university and studying for a medical degree at the age of 32. however if I want to be an "electrician" I have to have chosen the profession at 16 to get on an apprenticeship. if I didn't do that I "missed the boat" so hard luck

 

[Phil]

This thread is running the risk of going the same way of all the rest that have been closed. Lenny and Jason have made it clear enough that personal remarks and insults will not be tolerated.

I for one think the JIB and qualified electrician has been done enough over the last week and for one am getting a little tired of reading and having to moderate posts regarding it.
keep it civil

 

[gibo]

peoples life choices change over the years. I ended up in retail management after my A levels. I should be entitled to change careers if I wish and not be excluded from something if I didn't choose it when I was 16, ill advised and unwise.

 

[Paul.M]

peoples life choices change over the years. I ended up in retail management after my A levels. I should be entitled to change careers if I wish and not be excluded from something if I didn't choose it when I was 16, ill advised and unwise.

:iagree:Not many kids at the age of 16 know what they want to work as for the rest of their lives, I was one of them. Besides the electrical industry is an occupation for adults (so to say). I'm not against anyone changing careers but they need to know what they are getting into first. Back to the thread. The description of an electrician in my eyes = A person that has had adequate tutoring to enable them to pass a multitude of relevant exams coupled with enough experience of the area of what they are working in.

 

[wade88]

Hi guys,

Havnt had time to read ALL the posts made on this thread, or the last before it was moved from the Tool list thread, but i have read enough of such threads on here in the last 6 months to get the general idea.

I feel like im sitting in a AA meeting...So...Hi everyone, my names Ben, i went on a 7 weeks intensive electrical course....Gasp, Sigh,Boo, etc etc.

However, at the tender age of 23, having just finished a criminology degree at University and realising that a career within the police in this...modern cultural climate...wasnt going to happen. Young, fit, healthy, keen, etc, just isnt enough to make a policeman. however.

I have a 16 month old son, and i needed to get in a position where i can support him financially as BEST i can, as soon as could so was left with choices. one of which was to re-train and get some quals doing something.

Now i understand all you guys who have been training for years and really EARNT your quals are bitter, bent out of shape, angry and all those things about people like me who are seemingly running in and stealing your lime light...because quite frankly thats all im seeing, is people getting all bent up about someone having not jumped the same hoops as them but at the end of the day, we are all trying to do the same thing. earn a living to support what we love or just keep our heads dry and food on the table.

I care less about those jumping up and down making a fuss about it, we all do what we have to do, to get on in life. i didnt have 4 years spare to take the same route as you "proper sparks" have done, i had to get on and fast. That comes with experiance sacrifices of course, but us 5 day wonders, are really trying our best either way.

Have some patience guys and support each other, no matter what route we decided to take to get there.

Ben

...sorry for the essay

 

[malcolmsanford]

What is it about people on this site ?if you have been on the relevant courses and meet the criteria then you can do electrical work on domestic installations, we are all doing the same job to BS 7671, approved electricians didn't write this book . why do they think they're something that they are not,all the clever ones in this industry are dead and buried,Edison,Georg Ohm, Michael Faraday, James Clarke ,Werner von Siemens etc etc we are all wire pullers get real !!![/QUOTE]

Well you maybe a wire puller son ..........................but not all of us are

 

[pushrod]

It is a very rare beast nowadays that goes through their entire working life without career changes and, if government predictions are to be believed, then a lot of people presently working will end in jobs that have not even been invented yet.

 

[Adam W]

As I usually say when this topic comes up I don't have any problem with anyone retraining (jobs get outsourced, the market changes, sometimes even whole industries become redundant, so you either retrain or spend the rest of you life on benefits bemoaning whichever prime minister was in power at the time), but to me this idea of having 'no other choice' than to cut corners doesn't transpose well into this industry.
"I didn't have any other choice other than to do a 6 week course because I have a mortgage and kids" doesn't seem far off from:
"I didn't have any other choice than to add a socket to the lighting circuit because the customer didn't want a mess made."
Similarly a customer is unlikely to want to hear "I've got mouths to feed" as an excuse for overcharging for a job because someone who is supposed to be a professional hasn't got the knowledge or experience to make a profit on a job while still doing it properly; if it were me I would rather have the job done properly and for a reasonable price by someone who didn't take a shortcut with their training, even if it means getting the job done by someone who hasn't got kids - ask any customer and they'd probably prefer to see '20 years experience' on the side of a tradesman's van than 'I've got kids to feed'.

 

[gibo]

I am a domestic installer. I am gaining experience by working in domestic properties modifying or replacing electrical installations, adhering to 17th edition regs. completely legally. I need this experience to give me sufficient fundamental knowledge in order to study towards city and guilds 2391 and NVQ3. I need the NVQ3 in order to get a JIB gold card so I can call myself an electrician.This is the only way I can achieve this as I was too old for an apprenticeship when I started training. unfortunately some "proper sparks" on here do not want me to be able to do this. equally there are many that are supportive of people that have demonstrated that they are capable of passing all the required exams

 

[wade88]

As I usually say when this topic comes up I don't have any problem with anyone retraining (jobs get outsourced, the market changes, sometimes even whole industries become redundant, so you either retrain or spend the rest of you life on benefits bemoaning whichever prime minister was in power at the time), but to me this idea of having 'no other choice' than to cut corners doesn't transpose well into this industry.
"I didn't have any other choice other than to do a 6 week course because I have a mortgage and kids" doesn't seem far off from:
"I didn't have any other choice than to add a socket to the lighting circuit because the customer didn't want a mess made."
Similarly a customer is unlikely to want to hear "I've got mouths to feed" as an excuse for overcharging for a job because someone who is supposed to be a professional hasn't got the knowledge or experience to make a profit on a job while still doing it properly; if it were me I would rather have the job done properly and for a reasonable price by someone who didn't take a shortcut with their training, even if it means getting the job done by someone who hasn't got kids - ask any customer and they'd probably prefer to see '20 years experience' on the side of a tradesman's van than 'I've got kids to feed'.

Your being so ignorant its unreal. You think because someone got their qualifications a different way means they are automatically going to do a bad job and intentionaly compromise peoples safety to cut corners?! Having repsonsibilites and priorities like children and a mortgage are simply aspects that drive me and others to get somewhere and achieve things, not just be cowboy traders trying to make a quick buck hiding behind those things as an excuse.

I fully intent to provide the most professional and safe service i possibly can , and have absolutely no grief in asking for help when i need it if im un sure...hence being on here everyday reading what people have to say.

There is more then one way to skin a cat, and just because someone didnt go the original route by no means says they are going to be bad at what they do or any less professional and safe. Us 5 day wonders are fully aware of our different skill sets to you lads are i only speak for myself here, but i dont for one second believe becuase i hold some similar qualifications that i am "competing" with you on a level playing field because im not. I like many others, am simply trying to start a career. Simple as that.

 

[gibo]

and this is the only way to start that career after the apprenticeship route is closed to us. show me another way and I'll happily explore it

 

[malcolmsanford]

I am a domestic installer. I am gaining experience by working in domestic properties modifying or replacing electrical installations, adhering to 17th edition regs. completely legally. I need this experience to give me sufficient fundamental knowledge in order to study towards city and guilds 2391 and NVQ3. I need the NVQ3 in order to get a JIB gold card so I can call myself an electrician.This is the only way I can achieve this as I was too old for an apprenticeship when I started training. unfortunately some "proper sparks" on here do not want me to be able to do this. equally there are many that are supportive of people that have demonstrated that they are capable of passing all the required exams

This emotive subject is not new it was just as relevant 30 odd years ago when apprenticeships were being faded out and the 236 course was introduced as a 2 year option, I even remember the name for the students/trainees, "Diluties", so with the advent of the now in-famous 7 week course ridicule is bound to be prevelant.

I'm afraid that the first first sentance in the post, highlights the problem with the 7 week course. The word "experience". When you quote for work do you actually tell your client that your hoping to gain experience on their home and the work you do for them, as part of your learning curve? I suspect not. If you do then I admire you for your honesty. If you don't do you not think that in some terms you are not giving the customer a true reflection of your ability and therefore your work.

I can not comment for others, but as far as I'm concerned I have no problems with people retraining or switching careers, I have done this myself throughout my time in the electrical industry, What I take exception to is the lack of proper training that is now on offer. Not all "Fast Track" DIs are incompetant, the same as not all time served electriciana are, but what the majority of "Fast Track" DI's are is inexperienced, and IMO not the finished article to be working on peoples homes.

 

[gibo]

I have my own business and work alongside a recently retired electrician friend of a friend. he is teaching me the practical side. my customers so far have been friends and family of mine and of his and they have all been happy with the work done and the price. this is the closest thing to an apprenticeship that I can do. most DIs try to get some experience by volunteering or working with electricians that they know. only the foolish would attempt to go alone without it. unfortunately some do but I'm pretty sure the word of mouth advertising that they will rely on will not be very favourable

 

[fezzie]

Don't you just love sweeping generalisations. All 4 week DI's sh*t, all apprenticed electricians brilliant.

 

[Adam W]

Your being so ignorant its unreal.

What kind of question or statement do you think you would have to make for that response to be considered anything less than rude?

You think because someone got their qualifications a different way means they are automatically going to do a bad job and intentionaly compromise peoples safety to cut corners?! Having repsonsibilites and priorities like children and a mortgage are simply aspects that drive me and others to get somewhere and achieve things, not just be cowboy traders trying to make a quick buck hiding behind those things as an excuse.

No, I think you've fallen at the first hurdle by cutting corners with your training. Nobody sets out to be a 'cowboy' or intentionally cut corners or try to rip people off, it's something which just happens with a naturally slap-dash attitude.
I'm sure you think you're doing a wonderful job and are blissfully unaware otherwise, but asking questions on a forum are no substitute for seeing something done first hand many times and in different situations.

There is more then one way to skin a cat,... ...I like many others, am simply trying to start a career. Simple as that.

This is the problem with the DI short courses - they weren't intended to be an alternative route for people entering the industry, they were intended for people who already have the experience and just need the bits of paper. To expand their target audience and make a bit of extra money the training providers have marketed these courses as helping people to tap a lucrative market, with the end result that people are finishing the courses with precious little extra knowledge, just several thousand pounds lighter.
Take the 17th edition (2382) for example - it's a multiple guess test on extracting information from a book. Whether the book is on wiring regulations or fly fishing makes no odds - without the book in front of you, or without knowing where to look, it may just as well be a book on fly fishing.

As I already said I've got no problem with people training later in life, in fact I didn't start until I was 26; what I do have a problem with is people cutting corners then claiming they didn't have any other choice.

 

[Adam W]

and this is the only way to start that career after the apprenticeship route is closed to us. show me another way and I'll happily explore it

C&G 2330 and 2356, same as you do with an apprenticeship, difference is you have to fund it yourself and it's harder to get work placements, but then nobody said it was going to be easy.

The new 2357 looks to be harder or even impossible to get into due to having to be already employed in the industry, which I think is a bad idea.

 

[Adam W]

Don't you just love sweeping generalisations. All 4 week DI's sh*t, all apprenticed electricians brilliant.

Nobody is saying that except you.