Discuss What type of motor is this? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Hi, I've been working on some motors this week and are wondering what they are called. They are DC brushed motors, but speed is controlled by a mechanical gearbox on top of the motor. There are two rings of brushes inside the motor, turning the gearbox rotates these rings in opposite directions around the commutator which raises the motor speed.
A 40A motor had aroudn 26 brushes, but a 70A version had 120 brushes!

Thanks,
 
Hi bud,are these,brush lead-angle traction motors?

The last time i messed with these,was on a prototype cat-track traction carbody,for the self-propelled plant job. I have some hand-made HSS mica under-cutting tools,somewhere...

What are they driving?
 
<SNIP> I have some hand-made HSS mica under-cutting tools,somewhere...

What are they driving?
When I used to be a toolroom machinists I used to spend lunchtimes turning commutators down and undercutting them with a homemade tool, a snapped hacksaw blade wrapped in Duct tape (for safety ;-) )
 
Old skills are are a good way,of appreciating,what we had,and what we have:):)

Burnishing an edge,on a hand scraper...silver-soldering...dry stone walling...Oh don't get me wrong,riding a segway,in a Graphene suit,is great fun...but i'd swap it all,for a bit of wick-trimming ;)
 
The OP said DC,and only 2 sets of brushes,the Schrage has 3 sets in the description.
This don't stop them Schrage from looking real interesting:)

Now i'm more interested in the latter,and am wondering how the brush position is shifted,and what it could be used to drive...

Just had a scan...there is a version with three pairs,and two rings,and are listed as giving high torque,at all rpm's,with a 10 to 1 speed change. Were very popular on carpet/yarn production machinery.

I want one.
 
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That's the motor I had in my head ... couldn't remember it's name though and yes! First came across one in the a weaving machine, still struggle with the theory behind them tbh.
 
wondering how the brush position is shifted

Imagine an ordinary large DC brush motor with one set of brushes (i.e. one brush arm per pole) on a rocker that can be controlled by a handwheel, but positioned so that they occupy the half of the comm width nearer the bearing. A second rocker, around the outside of the first, is fitted with longer brush arms on a larger PCD so they reach over and past the first set, enabling the brushes run on the half of the comm nearer the winding. The two rockers are geared together in opposite directions and controlled by a handle or servomotor.

They say a picture paints a thousand words. You have the picture already - now I am going to try and walk through how the Schrage motor works in just words, without formulae or proofs. The key to understanding it is to mentally untangle the two separate functions that share a primary winding - the induction motor consisting of the primary and secondary, and the combined frequency convertor and variable transformer consisting of the primary, tertiary and brushgear.

If you start by ignoring the tertiary and brushgear, and instead connect the secondary to a starting resistance, you have a regular wound-rotor induction motor. It's mechanically inside out compared to normal motors - usually you would energise the stator and control the rotor for practical reasons - but theoretically it is the same motor. Normally all we can do is slow the motor by inserting resistance, as in a rotor resistance starter. But the speed of any wound-rotor motor could be controlled by injecting a voltage into the secondary circuit (rotor of a WRIM, stator of a Schrage) of the proper frequency and phase relative to the induced voltage which is at slip frequency. One polarity would slow it below synchronous, the other would speed it above synchronous. But the challenge is to generate this voltage at slip frequency - some conversion mechanism is required that maintains a precise phase relationship to the motor flux wave.

The trick with the Schrage motor is that it functions not only as a motor, but also as its own injection supply frequency convertor. By energising the rotor as the primary instead of the stator, the MMF wave cuts through space not at supply frequency but at slip frequency, therefore the voltage between points on the primary stationary in space is also at slip frequency. The same is true of the tertiary, which is coupled to the primary, so by bringing that out to a commutator a voltage is available from the brushes at slip frequency.

Iif we are to control the speed then that voltage needs to be variable. If we require both sub- and super-synchronous operation it must vary either side of zero, phased w.r.t the flux wave. An external autotransformer would serve the purpose but is unnecessary if the brushes are movable. The angular distance between the two sets controls how much of the tertiary winding is inserted in the secondary circuit, hence how much of its voltage is impressed on the secondary, and also its phase. For differential movement, each phase behaves like a Variac with two brushes, moving apart from the centrepoint, with the secondary slung between them. However the absolute position of the rockers can be moved too, which alters the phase of the voltage relative to the flux wave in the stator. Thus all the requirements are fulfilled for an injection supply capable of raising or lowering the speed of the machine relative to synchronous.

There. Did that make any sense?
 
Eh, OK.

The Metadyne is a type of cross-field armature-excited machine, in which the excitation flux along the main axis is produced by armature reaction from current passing through it across the quadrature axis via brushes shorted together (as in a reaction AC machine). When driven as a generator it achieves high gain from control winding to output, therefore it was employed in traction control and similar duties as an amplifier. Multiple windings enable it to serve as a null-detector or operational amplifier.
Hmm, why am I waffling on like this?
Patent US2599936 - Metadyne motor - https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US2599936

We've got a similar cross-field servo-amplifier built into the Ward-Leonard drive on one of our machines in the workshop. I've posted about it before see:
What Is The Oldest - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/what-is-the-oldest.112490/#post-1203584
 
Thank you. #12 takes me back to 'Generalised Machine Theory' and a Part 1 exam question to derive the transfer function Iout/Vin for a metadyne cross-field machine and explain compensation as used in an amplidyne. Happy days.

We have much to thank M. Ampere, Mr Faraday and Herr Lenz.
 
Sorry, typo, it is AC!
The brushes go all the way around the motor on the two rings.
Pictures below:



5C4D0F75-12BF-4884-B5A4-B935208215A1.jpg

AEB5D3AF-1100-4B3B-8421-78D1F01725E5.jpg

1163A367-DFED-4DC2-9426-DEAC4B49B54C.jpg
 
I think this electrical machine is (from left to right of bottom image) a star wound induction motor, 2 pole slip rings, a single phase alternator, a commutator and either an tachometer or exciter for the alternator.

The purpose of the induction motor is to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. The remaining components are to provide a source of high amperage alternating current which can be injected into a field coil wound on the induction motor's rotor.

By injecting current through emfs generated in the alternator into the field coil the rotor's flux vector can be increased or decreased in strength. If the flux flux vector increased in strength then from Lenz's Law the slip with respect to the rotating stator flux vector will decrease - thus the rotor rises in speed to synchronous speed. If the rotor flux is increased further then the rotor speed can become super -synchronous.

Similarly, if the flux vector is decreased in strength then the slip will increase so the rotor will reduce in speed.

The slip rings on show connect the rotating rotor field coil to the stationary armature of the alternator. Beneath the cover plate on top of the right side of the machine I suspect there is a commutator to connect the exciter machine to the alternator's rotating excitation coil. I think it is by the brushes on this commutator being rotated left or right of the magnetic north axis of the alternator that is is possible to alter the phase relationship of the injected emf/current in to the field coil; thus adding to or subtracting from the rotor's flux vector induced by the three phase stator coil. Or the axis of the armature coils might be rotated but I don't think that likely.

Or maybe I am wrong. I have not come across a motor like this before so this all theorising on my part. I think though there are clues in the range of power factor, power output, the two slip rings, range of speed which is even above 1800 rpm and the E20 plate details of 91V and 50A which I think refer to the alternator.

Remember that in the steady state the rotor flux vector is equal and opposite to the rotating stator flux vector (- Lenz's Law).
 
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I am not sure my #15 is completely correct because further study of final image shows 2 pairs of 3 conductors crossing left-right in the slip ring region.

I wonder then whether instead of a single phase alternator, there is a three phase one. Each of the motor's stator windings being connected in series with one of the alternator's three field coils. This way the motor's rotating stator flux vector will be electrically in phase with the alternator's field flux vector if the geometric axis of the two sets of coils are aligned.

Now an alternator armature coil connected to and rotating at the same speed as the motor rotor field coil will be able to generate and inject an emf/current whose phase relationship to the rotor currents can be varied by changing the goemetric north axis of the alternator field coils relative to the motor stator coils through some gearing arrangement thus varying slip and motor speed.

Or something like this.
 
Marconi I suspect you might be over-thinking this. It looks like a Schrage motor to me. It's got two sets of brushes running on a comm (those are not sliprings, you can't see the segments because it's in motion) mounted on geared rockers. Slipring brushes look different, and if they were for excitation there would be two small brushes on each ring and that's all. The second set of figures on the plate are for the secondary (Sek.) circuit. If it were excitation it would be marked Err. (Erregung = excitation). The speed control gearing is attached to the plate above the comm.

Injecting DC into a wound rotor gives you a synchronous machine. Injecting AC from a generator on a common shaft gives you a cascade machine, but it must be polyphase AC. A wound-rotor induction motor with a 3-phase stator may have a 2-phase or 3-phase rotor, but if it were only single-phase (which it would have to be with only two sliprings) there would be power-zeroes at slip-frequency which would be unacceptable. You can tell it's not a cascade machine because both halves need an equivalent total flux, so you would see two similar stator frames.

I think that end-bell on the right and the motor attached to it is for the cooling fan. Motors with a wide speed range tend to need a separate fan motor because a shaft mounted fan would not keep up with the copper loss at low speed and high torque. Sometimes a centrifugal fan blows into the bell from outside, sometimes it is coaxial with the motor as here.

Like PEG, I want one!
 
Dear Lucien,

Thank you for your post #18 and careful explanation. I was becoming vexed not being able to fathom what kind of motor I was looking at. As ever, you 'go the extra mile' to inform and educate. You may have missed your calling in life - you should have been a lecturer in university so lucid ( : -) ) are your explanations.

I googled the German manufacturer and found this:

Three-phase AC shunt m. DNR - http://www.faurndau.de/en/products/motors-overview/three-phase-ac-shunt-motors-dnr

According to Faurndau, DNR refers to a 'rotary current shunt motor', which I can find no mention of in any of my books or when I google the term. This then must be a technical phrase to describe the Schrage motor.

Once again thank you. My wife will be happy now that at long last I will leave this problem alone!

What a most interesting thread - thanks Chris 1234.
 
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'Rotary current' on their webpage is a mistranslation of 'Drehstrom' meaning polyphase AC. German makes the distinction between alternating (Wechselstrom) and rotating (Drehstrom) phasor, whereas we call both kinds alternating, and qualify them as single- or polyphase. 'Shunt' refers to the approximately constant speed characteristic, in which the Schrage motor mimics a DC shunt-wound machine.

And no, I wouldn't last long as a lecturer. I like getting my hands dirty.
 

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