When does a domestic property need a rewire ???

[Dozer 73]

The level of testing required for an electrical installation condition report will usually be far less than that required for initial verification; this is providing of course that previous inspection and test documentation is available. If it is not, then it will be necessary to carry out a full survey, and the complete range of tests must be carried out on the installation. This will be necessary to provide circuit charts and a comprehensive set of test results.
The level of testing will depend largely on what the inspector discovers during the visual inspection, and the value of any test results obtained while carrying out sample testing. If any tests show significantly differing results from previously recorded results for no apparent reason, then further tests may need to be carried out.
In some cases, up to 100 per cent of the installation will need to be tested, particularly where the past documentation is not available. Periodic inspecting and testing can be dangerous, and due consideration must be given to safety.
Persons carrying out the inspection and testing must be competent and experienced in the type of installation being inspected and also in the use of the test instruments being used.
Periodic inspection and testing does not require the tests to be carried out in any set sequence for the completion of the condition report. The sequence of tests is left to the person carrying out the inspection and testing to decide upon. For this type of inspection and testing it is usual for the installation to be live, and personally the first test which I normally carry out is an earth loop impedance test close to the origin of the supply. This is just to ensure that there is in fact an earth on the installation and that the polarity is correct before I start.
As previously mentioned it is down to the person carrying out the inspection to decide on the level of testing required when test results

 

[Dozer 73]

The NICEIC always suggested R2 testing, and not (R1+R2) testing for periodic inspection and testing where dead continuity testing was to be carried out. You don't want to be dismantling half of the installation for periodic inspection.

Guidance Note 3 specifically states that in a live installation (e.g. one being periodically inspected) that cpc continuity could be verified through live testing (i.e. Earth Fault Loop Impedance testing). Of course this should be agreed beforehand, but there is no particular reason to conduct either R2 or (R1+R2) testing during periodic inspection and testing. Yes it is true that there could be fortuitous paths, but without dismantling the installation that could be the case even with dead testing where another route is enabling a reading to be taken.

I presume you have accepted the point about insulation testing between live conductors being nearly impossible in all but the most simple installation, and not something generally undertaken during periodic inspection and testing?

Why is there a column on ins resistance on a conditional report for L to L , so you can waste ink and time writing NA down the column

 

[Risteard]

Why is there a column on ins resistance on a conditional report for L to L , so you can waste ink and time writing NA down the column

The Schedule of Test Results is the same for all work - that doesn't mean that every field is necessarily relevant. If you want to go into a department store and carry out insulation testing between phases; between phases and neutral; between phases and earth and between neutral and earth throughout the distribution circuits with all final circuits connected then be my guest. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't caution you against that approach though...

 

[Dozer 73]

The Schedule of Test Results is the same for all work - that doesn't mean that every field is necessarily relevant. If you want to go into a department store and carry out insulation testing between phases; between phases and neutral; between phases and earth and between neutral and earth throughout the distribution circuits with all final circuits connected then be my guest. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't caution you against that approach though...

I love a good debate , what are we talking Debenhams

 

[DPG]

Are you just trolling?

 

[telectrix]

Why is there a column on ins resistance on a conditional report for L to L , so you can waste ink and time writing NA down the column

L-L is there for 3 phase installations.

 

[Dozer 73]

L-L is there for 3 phase installations.

Page 94 guidance notes 3 ins resistance
Insulation resistance
All voltage sens devices to be disconnected or test between live conductors ( line and neutral ) connected together and earth
The insulation resistance between live conductors (l and n) is to be inserted in column 9

 

[Dozer 73]

Page 94 guidance notes 3 ins resistance
Insulation resistance
All voltage sens devices to be disconnected or test between live conductors ( line and neutral ) connected together and earth
The insulation resistance between live conductors (l and n) is to be inserted in column 9

A 3 phase test sheet rather than domestic has more columns for the phases(lives)

 

[Dozer 73]

Are you just trolling?

Dangling the bait , you do get an interesting debate on here , all good fun

 

[Dozer 73]

The Schedule of Test Results is the same for all work - that doesn't mean that every field is necessarily relevant. If you want to go into a department store and carry out insulation testing between phases; between phases and neutral; between phases and earth and between neutral and earth throughout the distribution circuits with all final circuits connected then be my guest. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't caution you against that approach though...

Department store yes I agree , every job will be different and approached different by the inspector , a big work shop with lots of 3 phase equipment for instance , you would have a different approach , also you would agree a percentage of circuits to be tested , I’m only giving different opioids for arguments sake

 

[Risteard]

Live/Live on model forms means exactly that. It relates to tests between all live conductors. In a single phase installation this is merely line (phase) to neutral. In a three-phase installation it is all phases to neutral, and also between all phases.

Likewise Live/Earth relates to all live conductors to Earth.

NICEIC schedules (and probably others also) have separate columns for phase - phase; phase(s) - neutral; phase(s) to Earth and neutral to Earth.

 

[Dozer 73]

Live/Live on model forms means exactly that. It relates to tests between all live conductors. In a single phase installation this is merely line (phase) to neutral. In a three-phase installation it is all phases to neutral, and also between all phases.

Likewise Live/Earth relates to all live conductors to Earth.

NICEIC schedules (and probably others also) have separate columns for phase - phase; phase(s) - neutral; phase(s) to Earth and neutral to Earth.

Do you think we get paid enough for all our knowledge and skills and the fact your neck is on the line with test sheets etc , well as an employee

 

[Risteard]

Department store yes I agree , every job will be different and approached different by the inspector , a big work shop with lots of 3 phase equipment for instance , you would have a different approach , also you would agree a percentage of circuits to be tested , I’m only giving different opioids for arguments sake

OK, but I can tell you right now that even for a domestic installation one of the things I always have in my terms when quoting as an agreed limitation is that insulation testing will only be carried out between live conductors connected together and Earth.

If they wanted insulation testing to be carried out between live conductors I can assure you that it would have a severe impact on the price quoted. I also don't believe that it would be particularly beneficial - certainly any perceived benefit of taking this approach would not in any way outweigh the additional cost.

 

[Leesparkykent]

That report doesn't look like it's worth the paper it's written on...I think you should get a 2nd opinion before you make any decisions. @Andy78 Is your neck of the woods and really knows his stuff, if I was you I would be sending him a pm to see if he could take a look/quote.

 

[Risteard]

I must have a peek at this report - I still haven't had a chance to read it!

 

[Risteard]

Slightly confusing how with no Earthing arrangement, and no connection between the MET to extraneous conductive parts either, how Zs values have been measured on the final circuits.

Certainly the report is not good. At all.

 

[Dozer 73]

I must have a peek at this report - I still haven't had a chance to read it!

Slightly confusing how with no Earthing arrangement, and no connection between the MET to extraneous conductive parts either, how Zs values have been measured on the final circuits.

Certainly the report is not good. At all.

that may paint a picture on some of my early comments , basicly looks like he’s written it off on visual ( write or wrong who knows ) and done a bit of paper work to back up his desicion
Hey presto hopefully 2500 ish in back pocket

 

[Andy78]

That report doesn't look like it's worth the paper it's written on...I think you should get a 2nd opinion before you make any decisions. @Andy78 Is your neck of the woods and really knows his stuff, if I was you I would be sending him a pm to see if he could take a look/quote.

Went round last night Lee.
Basically the last lad had spent 15 minutes under the stairs, no presence at end of circuits, and charged £70 for what he called a full EICR. He had fabricated all Zs results and even circuit descriptions, then quoted for a full rewire. The rewire price was a worryingly low amount and the customer won't be having his company again after being given a lot more reliable info.

He had recorded no main earth and left the property. There was a fairly new DNO head with a viable sheath connection ( Ze o.27 Ohms)and DNO supplied MET about a foot under the CU. I connected it up and recorded good Zs results at sockets in all rooms.

The last guy failed to spot the presence of several rubber TRS cables with no CPC still in use. The customer, having a good bit of self gained knowledge, had even asked about rubber cables but the fella said there were none.

The customer had already arranged for a full EICR asap at a proper rate with a local firm who have a 25 year history and good local reputation.
Had it been less work I could have got more involved, but I'm just catching up after having some time off with our new baby and the customer would have had to wait a few weeks, not great when things need addressing sooner than later.
I'm happy to have been able to at least re-instate the earthing conductor and give the customer some advice.

 

[Dozer 73]

Went round last night Lee.
Basically the last lad had spent 15 minutes under the stairs, no presence at end of circuits, and charged £70 for what he called a full EICR. He had fabricated all Zs results and even circuit descriptions, then quoted for a full rewire. The rewire price was a worryingly low amount and the customer won't be having his company again after being given a lot more reliable info.

He had recorded no main earth and left the property. There was a fairly new DNO head with a viable sheath connection ( Ze o.27 Ohms)and DNO supplied MET about a foot under the CU. I connected it up and recorded good Zs results at sockets in all rooms.

The last guy failed to spot the presence of several rubber TRS cables with no CPC still in use. The customer, having a good bit of self gained knowledge, had even asked about rubber cables but the fella said there were none.

The customer had already arranged for a full EICR asap at a proper rate with a local firm who have a 25 year history and good local reputation.
Had it been less work I could have got more involved, but I'm just catching up after having some time off with our new baby and the customer would have had to wait a few weeks, not great when things need addressing sooner than later.
I'm happy to have been able to at least re-instate the earthing conductor and give the customer some advice.

Scary

 

[Dozer 73]

Scary

After a rewire this guy could leave it in a worse state than it was