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Discuss woah! Danger present with BG outdoor light switch in the Electrical Forum area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    Thought i'd share this one that happened to me today....

    Was wiring up a customer gazebo with BG weatherproof fittings (light switch, sockets, JB and mains board). Anyway, all went fine and was on to testing the circuits.... circuits all tested fine.

    The lighting cables were terminated into a JB for the time being as the customer does not have the lights yet. So, once I had finished and just by chance i thought i would use my voltage pen on the connectors just to prove the light switch was off. Pen lit up but the switch was off? Scratched the head..... used my voltage tester and was getting 108 volts with the switch off!

    The BG outfdoor light switch has a neon on it via a resitor on the lead between common and one way terminal..... guessed that this was the problem rather than a faulty switch so removed it which in turn completely removed all voltage when the switch was off.

    Very dangerous if you were relying on the switch to isolate the power so thought i would share.

    Anyone else come across this before??
     
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  2. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    Interesting one that, wired that way the neon generally glows with the switch in the off position as an aid to locating the switch in the dark then goes off when a load is applied-the lights are on. Maybe this was because you had nothing connected at the load side and therefore a floating voltage ?
     
  3. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Isn't this going to cause a problem with lickering LED lamps as well?
     
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  4. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Another reason a neutral in a switch box isn't a bad idea......
    (tin hat on)
     
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  5. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    I think that's the best way, connect the neon across the permanent live and neutral, of course the neon won't go out when the switch is on but can't see that being significant.
     
  6. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    youre correct Dave OCD. The neon was on very faintly when in the off position and at the time i believed it was faulty as it wasnt coming on when switched on.

    It obviously was faulty though as it was still giving off 108 volts when off. This would have given you a wee dunt for sure.
     
  7. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    Yes you'd certainly feel that voltage Dave, I suspect the voltage would disappear once you have the lights fitted though, too knackered right now to explain it properly though. :)
     
  8. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Recently been wiring our lights via a feed into the switch rather than the lights...
    Much better imo
     
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  9. ruston
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    ruston Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northumberland
    It makes more sense now in domestics with the demise of the humble ceiling rose ,and saves on the MF junctions.
    I have been doing this for a long time now.
     
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  10. SJD
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    SJD Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Braccan heal
    Yes! I had a recent rental property job where they had changed the outside light from halogen to LED, and it didn't turn off completely. This BG switch was the culprit.
     
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  11. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Especially with most customers choosing spots as their go to lighting. That first spot with 3/4 cables... not needed.

    Viva la neutral at the switch! (the movement group name will need a re think)
     
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  12. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    i think it's mainly an english thing to wire permenant feeds to ceiling roses. We have typically been taught to wire from the switch and not to the ceiling rose. In my opinion its the only way to do it! It is not often i come across the perm live to ceiling method but when i do, it bugs the hell out of me!
     
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  13. anthonybragg
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    anthonybragg Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    NORTHAMPTON
    Business Name:
    CHARLTEC ELECTRICAL LTD
    MK switches are the same it has a neutral terminal in it I think that the fitting instructions show fitting neon/switch locator both ways. Thanks for the info on using with LED fittings.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  14. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    It's so great my movement is catching on so quicky :) never thought it'd go this well.
     
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  15. ruston
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    ruston Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northumberland
    And the Hager switch range is a godsend. :)
     
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  16. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Why? Does it have a neutral terminal at the switch?
    Are they in on the movement as well?
    Our first sponsor! Lol
     
  17. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    you dont need a switch with a neutral terminal.... connector blocks!!!!
     
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  18. SJD
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    SJD Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Braccan heal
    I'd rather use a Wago (or similar) m/f connector than try to stuff several neutral wires into one screw terminal.
     
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  19. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Don't be bad mouthing my movement sponsor.
    But yeah connector blocks do the trick. Think the customer is more concerned about how pretty their new shiny switch is rather than if there's a terminal for neutrals.
     
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  20. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Kinda interesting to see how the tide is turning with the neutrals in switches debate.
     
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  21. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    I thought everyone would be against it aswell
     
  22. Leesparkykent
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    Leesparkykent You Rock Gmes Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kent
    Schneider lisse range has a loop/neutral terminal as well.
     
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  23. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    seriously only the way to wire lights. The other way is completely wrong in my opinion!
     
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  24. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    I'm glad you're so passionate about the movement:)

    Okay I'll stop.
     
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  25. anthonybragg
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    anthonybragg Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    NORTHAMPTON
    Business Name:
    CHARLTEC ELECTRICAL LTD
    We always used to 3 plate ceiling roses but started to feed switch for show houses then started to wire this way as when people moved in to their new home was taking ceiling rose down and making a pigs ear of installing their own fitting up like there have been on this forum.
     
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  26. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Much easier on 2nd fix as well. One cable at the fitting and just 2 wires in common rather than one and a connector block for neutrals.
     
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  27. Leesparkykent
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    Leesparkykent You Rock Gmes Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kent
    Both methods have there advantages. When we do new builds 9/10 times the switch is fed. When doing rewires with a pendant in each room we normally 3 plate the light as less to get down to the switch.
     
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  28. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Perfectly normal, it's the way these locator neons have worked for a long time, MK weatherproof are exactly the same along with others. The only time it will be a problem is when idiots who don't know how to safely isolate atttempt to work on it, and then they might just learn a lesson.
     
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  29. dmxtothemax
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    dmxtothemax Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Australia
    Business Name:
    David Haddock Electronic Repairs
    Neon power indicators are a trap for younger inexperienced electricians
    But most experienced electricians know about them
    So it surprises me you have not come across this before
    the current levels are usually very small
    but yes they can make LED's and even some CFL'S
    produce a faint glow.
     
  30. DPG
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    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    About the sort of reply we've come to expect.
     
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  31. HandySparks
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    HandySparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Hampshire
    Business Name:
    Neish Electrical Services
    Ha ha! True. davesparks doesn't believe in sugar-coating the truth. :D
     
  32. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    think someone thinks he's more superior than the rest of us on here
     
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  33. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    I think I started wiring lighting looping feeds through switches around 20 years ago, probably more. At the time older sparks would frown upon it saying people could connect sockets etc from a light switch but times have changed. :)
     
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  34. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    A single socket at 1200 - sounds like a dream, no bending down ever again!
     
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  35. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    What I find easier still for rewiring ground floor lights Lee is a central JB with a cable from each light,switch and the supply back to it. A proper old fashioned method but of course I'd use a maintenance free box with Wagos or Ideal push in connectors and glands. If it's a normal adaptable box I might write 'MF' on it. :D
     
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  36. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    Always used to say 4' 6" or 't!t height' for light switches. :)
     
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  37. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    arghhhhh!!!....... i've come across one of these on a job a couple of times. They've been called an "octopus box". Complete nightmare trying to suss them out!!!
     
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  38. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    They're ok if done methodically and neatly Dave, I'd also put a label at the CU detailing the location and method used, it could be in an upstairs cupboard if available rather than under the floor.
     
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  39. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    Shins to Tits. There's ya zones. ;)
    Spider method. Seen a few spots wired like that. Never a full floor!
     
  40. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Why s nightmare? Lighting circuits are very simple to work out, it's just a few switches and lights.
    If you find a central JB on a lighting circuit to be a complete nightmare then how on earth do you cope with simple control systems?
     
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  41. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    What, the truth?
    Has this been common for a long time? Yes
    Is it only a problem for someone who can't isolate a circuit safely? Yes
    Will they learn a lesson from their mistake? Hopefully
     
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  42. daveb
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    daveb Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Aberdeenshire
    You my friend, are so unbelievably arrogant and seem to believe you are some superior electrician with all the knowledge in the world. Really don't know how you are allowed to post on here without being banned. If you can't reply in a nice manner then why bother? You're either very insecure or a very small man. Everyone else on here keeps the posts civil - why can't you?
     
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  43. DPG
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    DPG Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S Yorkshire
    Davesparks, why don't you just troll off somewhere else. Sick of your superior smug replies to everybody. It got like this before and all that happens is people start leaving the forum.
     
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  44. GMES
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    GMES Chief Gorilla Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Guys, let's Keep it civil and move on please. If a member isn't happy with another members comments then please feel free to use the report button, much better than derailing a thread, cheers lads.
     
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  45. D00DY_T00DY
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    D00DY_T00DY Gorilla Whisperer Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    UK
    *grabs popcorn*
    :D
    So about them neutrals huh? Lol
     
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