won't install new cooker without new extraction!?

[RenegadeBum]

Hi all,

We have a problem replacing a gas commercial cooker, it's in a small commercial setting (a care home).

We just want to swap the old cooker for a brand new equivalent but are being told that no one will do the swap/install unless we also install a canopy extracting externally (rather than the current filter-only extraction).

Is this actually correct on a like-for-like cooker swap in a care home? And if so then will 60 l/s extraction elsewhere in the room be sufficient? Otherwise ducting may be a big problem if we have to do it directly over the cooker.

Thanks

 

[Pete999]

Hi all,

We have a problem replacing a gas commercial cooker, it's in a small commercial setting (a care home).

We just want to swap the old cooker for a brand new equivalent but are being told that no one will do the swap/install unless we also install a canopy extracting externally (rather than the current filter-only extraction).

Is this actually correct on a like-for-like cooker swap in a care home? And if so then will 60 l/s extraction elsewhere in the room be sufficient? Otherwise ducting may be a big problem if we have to do it directly over the cooker.

Thanks

Is the installer BG by any chance?

 

[The Ghost]

Get an electric cooker, as now you have to have ventilator and gas isolator when the vent is not working I think start at about 6k!

 

[Des 56]

If you were to read something of your responsibilities Module 90: Ventilation and gas safety in the commercial kitchen | CIBSE Journal - http://www.cibsejournal.com/cpd/modules/2016-02/ you may find that the extraction required is a change of air ventilation system, vented to the outside.In addition there are rules governing the Gas valve and the control of the extraction

 

[RenegadeBum]

Is the installer BG by any chance?

How did you know?

 

[RenegadeBum]

If you were to read something of your responsibilities Module 90: Ventilation and gas safety in the commercial kitchen | CIBSE Journal - http://www.cibsejournal.com/cpd/modules/2016-02/ you may find that the extraction required is a change of air ventilation system, vented to the outside.In addition there are rules governing the Gas valve and the control of the extraction

But isn't this to new installations/kitchens, not replacing just an existing cooker? As room has an opening window already. I'm happy to comply, I just want to know that I'm not being scared into spending more money than necessary by tradespeersons, based on inaccurate interpretation of the building regs!

Yes am aware re the requirement for gas to be auto-cut off if extraction fails

 

[Pete999]

How did you know?

Just a guess

 

[Taylortwocities]

Just a guess

 

[mattg4321]

We got involved with something similar last year.

New cooker in retirement home meant gas supply was controlled by an interlock valve meaning unless the ventilation was on and working, the cooker would get no gas.

 

[telectrix]

seems simple to me. extract the old cooker. fit the new one.

 

[sparkdog]

Had the same thing on commercial, gas interlock & linked extractor required.The gas interlock & extractor are run from the same control box.No or low extraction rate and the interlock turns the gas off. It also does an automatic leak test.

 

[Last plumber]

Not a simple straight forward, black and white answer !

You need to get an Engineer who is qualified to work in commercial catering environments to come and see it really.

There are many things that need taking into account but they should be able to do a risk assessment for you and advise you.

A lot of people throw the interlock and ventilation problem around without actually knowing the facts.

 

[RenegadeBum]

Thanks for the replies all, much appreciated. Will get quotes from a couple of speciailists doing commercial kitchens then.

 

[RenegadeBum]

Hi all - so now we're looking at ditching the gas altogether and just going for an electric cooker. How does this affect extraction requirements? We've been getting horrendous quotes (nearly 10k) to do the ducting and hood!

 

[Pete999]

Hi all - so now we're looking at ditching the gas altogether and just going for an electric cooker. How does this affect extraction requirements? We've been getting horrendous quotes (nearly 10k) to do the ducting and hood!

Are the cooker and hood on an outside wall?

 

[RenegadeBum]

Are the cooker and hood on an outside wall?

Alas no, and that's why the ducting quotes are so horrific!

Is a hood mandatory for electric cookers, as well as externally-vented extraction?

 

[Des 56]

I think your obligation to provide ventilation for a electric cooker in your kitchen is towards H+S for your workers

H+S quote
Regulations require that employers provide effective and suitable ventilation in every enclosed workplace. This includes kitchens, which need ventilation to create a safe and comfortable working environment.

I believe the Electric cooking safety requirements are not going to be anywhere near as problamatic as for Gas

 

[SparkyChick]

I believe the answer is yes to the is it mandatory question. It's there to draw off harmful chemicals created by cooking.

 

[Des 56]

Is a hood mandatory for electric cookers, as well as externally-vented extraction?



I believe a canopy is only "recommended" and that extraction from a fan elsewhere in the room would be fine
Extraction of the air and the replacement with clean air can be either from other areas of the building or a outside vent in an area where the air is not fouled (Bins or smoking zones etc)

Here is some copied content for the above opinion

Where canopies are not used, eg where extraction is through ventilated ceilings, consult a competent heating and ventilation engineer to calculate the appropriate ventilation rates

Repacement air
The ventilation system design should take into account the need to replace extracted air. Mechanical and/or natural means can provide make-up air, but it should be fresh and unadulterated from the outside. In smaller kitchens, there may be sufficient replacement air drawn in naturally via ventilation grilles in walls, doors or windows. Where air is drawn in naturally, some means of control over pest entry is usually needed. A fine mesh grille will restrict the ventilation, and a larger grille area can compensate. However, for larger installations, a mechanical system using a fan and filter is more suitable. The ‘clean air’ should not be taken from ‘dirty’ areas, eg waste storage, smoking areas etc. The make-up air should not impair the performance of flues serving gas appliances

 

[Last plumber]

Not as complicated as gas. With gas we are concerned with the removal of products of combustion and providing enough combustion air as well as removal of cooking fumes/ vapours etc.
Modern electric cookers are more efficient than they used to be.
If you can go with electric you could save yourself a headache !