RCCB Breaker Tripping?

[Dave1UK]

So I finally had an electrician come around (someone who was recommended to me).

He started by running few tests on the main switchboard, then sockets and back and forth. Based on his diagnosis it turned out that one socket was faulty/causing an issue (the cable/s anyway - no visible issue on them though i.e. burning or such), however couldn't investigate further as it's under the floorboards so would need access to determine the root issue it seems.

The issue was as I expected in the kitchen. He stated the kitchen wiring is a ring circuit and he basically disconnected the problem socket (no longer works), he also had to disconnect a further 2 sockets making a total of 3 unusable now. We still have a total of 4 functioning sockets.

Within the main switchboard he swapped the B32 MCB to a B20 MCB (spare) as well. He stated this should work fine for the appliances and load for now. He did mention further work will be needed to get it all working again etc.

I am glad he resolved the issue and the kitchen is basically usable again, however not happy that he quoted a different price over the phone and charged extra upon work completion (for no extra work I clearly explained the issue and most likely saved both him/myself some diagnosis time by stating the issue is in the kitchen), I'm sure not everyone is like that however seems to be a big issue within such industries (automotive and such spoils it for others). A shame as he has a lot of 5 star Google reviews and in two minds about giving him 1 star for such a stunt.

Anyhow just here again wondering why the 2 extra sockets had to be 'decommissioned'? Also why swap the MCB from a higher tolerance to lower tolerance?

Included a terrible representation of how the switches are/located, I know the 3 switches are connected like that as the cables hang slightly under the cupboards and can be seen, I also dismantled every single socket prior to calling him over to check if cables are damaged/any moisture. I'm assuming the top one which is high up the wall for the extractor is a spur? Also potentially the cupboard one is also a spur? The red lines with a ? are basically what I would assume/logically would make sense then again I'm not an electrician.

 

[pc1966]

Anyhow just here again wondering why the 2 extra sockets had to be 'decommissioned'?

Without doing the testing nobody can say, but I suspect he was looking at cables showing an insulation fault and having isolated both ends those happened to be fed from it.

Also why swap the MCB from a higher tolerance to lower tolerance?

In the UK it is common to have a "ring final circuit" (RFC) where all the sockets are wired in a ring, so:

• CU -> socket #1 -> #2 ... -> socket #N -> CU

Wired in 2.5mm cable that has a rating of around 20A, but due to the ring and how the current is typically shared you can safely use a 32A supply.

If you break that loop and make two radials, so:

• CU -> #1 -> #2 ...
• CU -> #N -> #N-1 ...

Then each radial is only safe to 20A so you need to de-rate the supply breaker. If designing for radials, you would put two 20A breakers in, one for each branch.

 

[timhoward]

Well we weren't there, so it's guesswork. My guess is as follows.

He found the 'problem' to be the cable to or from the 'problem socket'.
He then proceeded to change the circuit from a ring final circuit to a radial circuit so the problem cable is no longer in service. He then correctly changed the protective device to comply with protecting the lower current carrying capacity of a radial circuit.
There's nothing wrong with that provided he's looked at the likely loading, especially considering the utility room.

The slightly confusing part is why he then disconnected all the spurs. I can't immediately see a reason but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

This kind of fault finding is hard to quote for in advance; I usually quote two hours to find the issue but not fix it, then when the issue is known discuss the resolution and likely cost with customer.

 

[littlespark]

Yes, you can’t do fault finding on a quoted price… you don’t know what you’re going to come across.

I don’t know why he disconnected spurs either… unless they were spurs from a spur…. Which is wrong on an rfc, but perfectly acceptable on the radial because of the 20A breaker.

 

[Dave1UK]

Without doing the testing nobody can say, but I suspect he was looking at cables showing an insulation fault and having isolated both ends those happened to be fed from it.

In the UK it is common to have a "ring final circuit" (RFC) where all the sockets are wired in a ring, so:

• CU -> socket #1 -> #2 ... -> socket #N -> CU

Wired in 2.5mm cable that has a rating of around 20A, but due to the ring and how the current is typically shared you can safely use a 32A supply.

If you break that loop and make two radials, so:

• CU -> #1 -> #2 ...
• CU -> #N -> #N-1 ...

Then each radial is only safe to 20A so you need to de-rate the supply breaker. If designing for radials, you would put two 20A breakers in, one for each branch.

Appreciate the breakdown, the theory seems to make sense. Yeah he just 'decommissioned' and thereafter de-rated, no new parts were added/removed.

Well we weren't there, so it's guesswork. My guess is as follows.

He found the 'problem' to be the cable to or from the 'problem socket'.
He then proceeded to change the circuit from a ring final circuit to a radial circuit so the problem cable is no longer in service. He then correctly changed the protective device to comply with protecting the lower current carrying capacity of a radial circuit.
There's nothing wrong with that provided he's looked at the likely loading, especially considering the utility room.

The slightly confusing part is why he then disconnected all the spurs. I can't immediately see a reason but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

This kind of fault finding is hard to quote for in advance; I usually quote two hours to find the issue but not fix it, then when the issue is known discuss the resolution and likely cost with customer.

I'm wondering the same regarding the spurs as I just plugged the extractor fan into one of the lower sockets anyway, so unless there is a thing about no. of sockets and MCB limit doesn't seem to make sense. Does make it a little inconvenient to plug the extractor fan on bottom but not unliveable.

In regards to quoting point, maybe but if over the phone you are told there is a RCCB tripping, believe it's a kitchen fault due to kitchen MCB having been off for a week and hasn't tripped the others and can't reset the kitchen MCB as trips immediately (basically a clear job spec - assuming the kitchen is the issue and not a wild goose chase, another story). He asked for a picture of main switchboard and said he will get back prior to scheduling a time to come (assuming some research?). I was fully expecting 2 hours, knew 1 hour wouldn't be enough. Quoted a fixed £75.00 per hour no VAT as wasn't VAT registered (I asked on phone). Spent exactly 1 hour 44 minutes from ringing the doorbell to leaving (don't worry I wasn't timing him but Ring doorbell has timestamps). Didn't have to use any new replacement parts worked with what was there, he identified the issue within the first hour (said he knew what the issue was i.e. that socket and then the next 44 minutes resolved it or so it seems). Ended up with a bill of £190.00, mind you I was going to tip him for the swift resolution but not after that.

I occasionally do some IT repairs on call and we charge a fixed rate per hour as well and can do so and advise the customer of how long it would approximately take based on the problem. We have a lot of elderly clients who unfortunately aren't IT savvy and to be honest not sure why their children don't assist them with most of these issues (ofc with those whereby you can tell they have some). We accept a job based on our expertise and whether we actually can resolve an issue, we go there with our skill set and diagnosis equipment/tools don't charge extra for that separately. Notify them if it may go over the hour, if we spend lets say 1 hour 30 minutes we would offer a discount as well as didn't take the full hour. Bit of a rant but had to get it off my chest!

Yes, you can’t do fault finding on a quoted price… you don’t know what you’re going to come across.

I don’t know why he disconnected spurs either… unless they were spurs from a spur…. Which is wrong on an rfc, but perfectly acceptable on the radial because of the 20A breaker.

Not sure I follow the 'you can't do fault finding on a quoted price'? If you have a fixed rate per hour, regardless of what the job is, whether you're asked to fault find in 1 room or 10 rooms price should be the same?

 

[timhoward]

Not sure I follow the 'you can't do fault finding on a quoted price'? If you have a fixed rate per hour, regardless of what the job is, whether you're asked to fault find in 1 room or 10 rooms price should be the same?

Cross purposes I think. Both me and @littlespark meant that predicating the total number of hours to diagnose and then fix is nearly impossible. We weren't saying the hourly rate would change!

What I meant was that even if the circuit is known (kitchen) I don't know over the phone how many sockets I'll need to take apart, how many appliances I'll need to drag out to access sockets, or whether there are joint boxes above the ceiling, below the floor, or behind the units (which with today's kitchen fitters is virtually a given).

At end of day you were charged £40 extra. Did you ask him why it was more than his hourly rate? I'd certainly ask him why the spurs were disconnected.

 

[Dave1UK]

Cross purposes I think. Both me and @littlespark meant that predicating the total number of hours to diagnose and then fix is nearly impossible. We weren't saying the hourly rate would change!

What I meant was that even if the circuit is known (kitchen) I don't know over the phone how many sockets I'll need to take apart, how many appliances I'll need to drag out to access sockets, or whether there are joint boxes above the ceiling, below the floor, or behind the units (which with today's kitchen fitters is virtually a given).

At end of day you were charged £40 extra. Did you ask him why it was more than his hourly rate? I'd certainly ask him why the spurs were disconnected.

Ah ok, yeah granted, misunderstood what was meant. Fully aware diagnosing any problem if intermittent or whatnot can be as quick a 5 minutes to hours totally, makes sense that the charge could have been higher (more hours to diagnose required). No one can make such predictions.

Honestly I didn't bother, was happy the issue was resolved, we had access to the kitchen sockets now (albeit a few decommissioned). Also the cost will not be fully borne by myself as sharing the house with family members. So really just wanted him out of the house without creating an issue out of it. Also when he mentioned £190 I did doubt myself at that moment as to whether I misunderstood or made a mistake when hearing him over the phone. I am 99% sure he did say £75 and not £95. As I had a few other quotes from others who were priced higher at £80 + VAT, so at £75 with no VAT seemed much more affordable along with a recommendation from a friend. So I thought you know what I'll get my brother to call him in a few days to ask for a quote for a similar issue and see how much he says then I can be sure he did overcharge and a negative review would be warranted, seems only fair.

In terms of the spurs, I didn't even know what a ring circuit was until he mentioned it so I had a quick Google and came across 3 different types of circuits, he did mention for high load appliances such as kitchens, ring circuits are basically the default setup. Didn't know what a spur was until later that evening either after researching. I will be sending him a message to ask though, good point.

 

[littlespark]

3 types of circuits? Ring, radial and ????

Ring is a loop… cable from board, loops into each socket and returns to the same circuit breaker.
Standard 32A, using 2.5mm cable.
The load is divided across both legs back to the board.

Radial is a single cable leaving the board feeding each point until you get to the end.
Can be wired in a line, or as branches off like a tree. 16 or 20A with 2.5 cable…. 32A with 4mm cable.

Radials are also used to supply just one point, such as a cooker switch…. And how lighting is wired.

I suppose the third type could be the old “lollipop” circuit with a large sized cable feeding to a joint box, and a number of smaller cables from there out to each point.

 

[lawrence101]

Woke up this morning and tried to turn on the computer (work from home) wouldn't power on, checked lights they worked fine. Went downstairs to check the switchboard and only the RCCB breaker was tripped, all other MCBs on. I can narrow this down to it occurring between 06:30 - 07:30 this morning (based on Ring doorbell camera), not that is it of much use knowing this?

As soon as I flipped the RCCB on, it tripped immediately, flipped it on again and it stayed on. An hour later, the RCCB tripped again although this time along with the kitchen MCB. Few minute ago now flipped both on and it's on (currently).

This has never happened before, we haven't bought/plugged in any new appliances, definitely not between 06:30 - 07:30, as all asleep.

In the kitchen we only have 2 fridges plugged in/operating 24/7, microwave (standby) and that is literally it, everything else switched off at mains. I switched off the microwave at mains as well now, so only 2 fridges are plugged into the sockets.

Is there a way to narrow this down further/figure out what could be causing it prior to calling someone in?

Thanks.

It can be caused by a few things but If both fridges are plugged into the same receptacle ( i.e on the same breaker) its possible that when both compressors kick-in at the same time it overloads the breaker and it trips out. But you said this never happened before so possibly one of the compressors is on the way out and drawing excessive current. A weak or faulty breaker at the main house panel can be possible cause or a bad or arcing receptacle.
Oops... just realised how old that post is.

 

[nicebutdim]

It can be caused by a few things but If both fridges are plugged into the same receptacle ( i.e on the same breaker) its possible that when both compressors kick-in at the same time it overloads the breaker and it trips out. But you said this never happened before so possibly one of the compressors is on the way out and drawing excessive current. A weak or faulty breaker at the main house panel can be possible cause or a bad or arcing receptacle.

RCCB is an acronym of Residual Current Circuit Breaker. These devices are solely intended to detect imbalance between line and neutral. They will trip when current leakage to earth exceeds a set value, but will not trip due to overload - the devices downstream of it deal with overload.