Earth terminated outside.

[Buzz1980]

Hi All

Seen this on a few jobs now where they have on the Downlight fittings where the CPC is terminated outside the enclosure of the Downlight due to not having a earth connection inside. Does anyone know the reg that states that this is not permitted and earth connections should be inside enclosure. As on a EICR I would usually put down C3 but if you look at the Downlight connection side, the earth cable usually comes out the terminal enclosure single insulated and then connected on the side of the Downlight. Will look forward to responses cheers

 

[Pretty Mouth]

However we read those two 543.1.1 does not permit the 1.0 cpc to be unenclosed.

Agreed

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I think I know the LAP downlights the OP means (not the ones pictured), and have on occasion fitted them myself when supplied by a customer. I did the same, sheathed and folded the CPC back along the sheath and joined with a wago outside of the enclosure. While non-compliant, I don't see any real benefit in terms of safety in wiring in junction boxes to enclose the CPC connection.

 

[westward10]

You would have to list that as a departure then.

 

[pirate]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!

 

[westward10]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.
Maybe in 50 years, it might be disturbed...maybe in 5 years the rodents might attack!
Maybe we'll all be dead by then...but the looped-out cpc will not have been the cause of our demise, I'm pretty sure!

Then that is a non compliant installation, I assume you note this as a departure.

 

[James]

If you use the early Quinetic stuff, there is nowhere to park an unused cpc...some folk seem to manage to squeeze it into the connector block...but I don't.
Loop it outside, properly terminated into a Wago...and move on. It's completely obvious what it is, and it is instantly available for use as a cpc if required.

presumably in a wago box or other enclosure as per the instructions?

 

[pirate]

Yes, clearly a departure, and noted as such...but if enclosed suitably, then not a problem. What you actually do is a question of choice/location/circumstances/preference...we may have to adhere to standards, but we are professionals too...if we can justify it, we should stick by it.
A superflous cpc at a class 2 luminaire with a cpc in an external Wago is not a problem. The fitting doesn't need it.
A cpc available at every light fitting is a good thing.
A change to a Class 1 luminaire means a cpc is available, and at that time, proper enclosure is important.
Always be aware that YOUR choice is going to be questioned...and be prepared to defend your choice with robust and valid arguments. Don't be afraid of the "rules Gods", just have a reasoned approach to defend, and state your case accordingly.
Yes, I know...don't start, ok? Do it right, or do it right enough and safely.

 

[westward10]

Yes but you can't defend it what should have happened is a suitable luminaire connector with a two core cable. This is the professional approach.

 

[123]

@westward10 How does anyone fit these correctly?

 

[pirate]

Not sure what you mean Westy...if i had a suitable class 2 luminaire then a cpc wouldn't be needed. A 2 core cable serving it would be fine, but not future proof. I'd rather cable for what might be, rather than what is...so cpc at each lighting point, which is now the norm...
and if the cpc isn't required, at least it is there for future use. OK, a "floating" cpc isn't ideal, but connected in a Wago or Ideal it's not exactly going to kill anyone is it?
Oh...look. we have a fault on the lighting circuit...the mcb has tripped!
No! It's worse...the rcd has tripped... or the rcbo...
I know! Let's open up the Wagos that have the cpc connectivity and lick the bare ends!
Westy, we looked at a poor connector...but we both know there are various ways of sorting that out...I totally agree with your scenario of perfection, but in the real world I do feel there is room for variation, provided you can justify it...that's all I'm saying. In a previous life, I argued black was white...and sometimes it was.
Having said all that...
We all should strive to do what is best, and if that's not possible, do what is as near to best as we can manage.
and if that's not possible?
Bodge it!
,,,but bodge it safely!
It's what we have to do...sometimes.

 

[westward10]

Yes but you can't justify it. This is nothing to do with perfection the correct means is simple. Three core to a suitable luminaire connector then two core from this connector to the light fitting.
The rest of your post is somewhat meaningless.

 

[westward10]

View attachment 105575

@westward10 How does anyone fit these correctly?

They would fit directly into a bin.

 

[pirate]

I'm not sure that we are actually looking at the same scenario Westy...your reply suggests we are viewing a totally different installation.
Yes, a 3-core to a 2-core...perfection...but how often do we see this when installing new fittings? We see 2-core and cpc, so the question is what to do with the cpc?
I guess we would all have a different solution...but I do like your thinking on this...and will take it on board for the future.
Meantime, if I am faced with fitting some Class 2 lights, I'll loop the cpc rather than cutting it off, and if the "loop" is outside an enclosure, but unlikely to be interfered with, I will sleep ok. In any other circumstance, I'll enclose it.
Thank you for your valuable input, because I know you are one for the best installation practice. I just think that sometimes there is a safe alternative where the risk is minimal, and I am prepared to defend my choice in those circumstances.

 

[westward10]

You have no defence.

 

[123]

They would fit directly into a bin.

I agree on that...
But these are still commonly sold in the UK via DIY outlets : (

 

[pirate]

I beg to differ...
and I am confident in that...
I am sorry that you can't see my viewpoint, but we'll leave it there.
Thank you for your input because it is always so measured and of value.
I will still loop a spare cpc at the fitting!

 

[pirate]

Oh...and I do have a defence!

 

[pirate]

but one which will remain in my domain...

 

[westward10]

Oh...and I do have a defence!

No you don't.

 

[pirate]

Oh well...I'll leave it there, thank you...
If you ever need a defence, let me know...
some of us have other expertise...

 

[westward10]

Oh well...I'll leave it there, thank you...
If you ever need a defence, let me know...
some of us have other expertise...

Well you must believe you have one so how do you justify the departure from BS7671, do you have a copy of BS7671.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I think we have to keep things in perspective here. We are talking about an inch or two of 1mm CPC, tucked away in a ceiling void, where the regulations technically require it to be 2.5mm. I would be very surprised to learn that anyone here seriously thinks that this is potentially dangerous.

 

[timhoward]

I think we have to keep things in perspective here. We are talking about an inch or two of 1mm CPC, tucked away in a ceiling void, where the regulations technically require it to be 2.5mm. I would be very surprised to learn that anyone here seriously thinks that this is potentially dangerous.

You've conjured up this image in my mind of 2 x 1mm T+Es entering a wago box, and a few inches of 6 mm T+E leaving the same box going out to the downlight with the 2.5mm CPC hanging out with sleeving and a wago on the end.....

I do tend to keep the Quikwire plug and sockets in stock as this guarantees a decent enclosed CPC connection, and then we are back to the same issue of what to do with the CPC in the flex if the fitting isn't designed to accept one. 2 core flex like a table lamp - maybe but then there is no CPC to the final point.

Maybe downlights will go out of fashion soon and retro-pendants will become the new must-have look.

 

[pirate]

No, I don't.. Why would I have a full copy? I use the Guides to BS7671 Good Practice and Inspection and Testing, because as everyone on this forum knows I am not claiming to be an electrician. I do domestic stuff, I do it well, I test it and install it to the best of my ability, and I seek asistance where required . I do small light industrial installations which are basically upscaled domestic, and when I see something I don't know I get someone else to do it, and learn from them. I have never claimed expertise in BS7671, and I suspect many on here haven't either...it's a reference.
However, I do have the ability to interpret stuff, and I do have the ability to carry out simple installations in a safe manner, so I am entitled to have an opinion on some practices where I have had actual experience.
I have on-hands experience of marine electrics, for 40 years, I have on-hands experience of DIY lighting and RFCs for 40 years, I have hands-on experience of domestic electrics and plumbing for 40 years, and I augment my experience with over 200 hours of CPD every year...
So, no...I don't have a full copy of BS7671...
(but I do have the latest 5th edition ISITEE! and I do test to it every time!)
Thus, you are completely correct...I am NOT an electrician, and thus as a non-holder of a full BS7671 my views and experience are absolutely useless, valueless and totally crap.
Oddly...some folks on this forum have found some of my experience mildy useful...
So, when I suggest that terminating a redundant cpc outside an enclosure isn't the worst sin in the world, I am happy to say that i do it...and if you insist that I enclose it, so be it...
I suspect that many on this forum have done that, and while being far from perfection, it's better than some of the other "solutions" we have all encountered. OK, I'm "unqualified"...but I am competent, which is all that is required in the areas in which I work... and having the Unite Guides to hand means I can get the basic data I need when I am in doubt. Armed with my proper 2-pole Fluke tester and my Kewtech MFT, I am confident that my workmanship is better than the average builder's electrician, so in summary, I can defend my external connection of a cpc on a lighting circuit by saying it doesn't comply, but it also doesn't contravene enough to put me in jail. The bathroom fitter who ignores that available cpc and uses a class 1 fitting within zones (as he did in my house, twice) shows no regard for the regs, so where does that leave us?
No more to say on this!

 

[mainline]

I think we have to keep things in perspective here. We are talking about an inch or two of 1mm CPC, tucked away in a ceiling void, where the regulations technically require it to be 2.5mm. I would be very surprised to learn that anyone here seriously thinks that this is potentially dangerous.

where the regulations technically require it to be 2.5mm.

4 mm, unless it's protected


I suppose it could be dangerous in the respect that if 2 electricians met up and started arguing the point.

The better way is to refuse to fit the carp and, as @westwood said, the only place they should be is the bin.

You can't have an exposed 1mm cpc, but It seems to be OK to have a metal bracket that the cpc connects to that's exposed ?.

If the lights didn't have the external loop and the cpc connected to the bracket within the terminal, it would be compliant ?.

 

[westward10]

I wouldn't use those fittings as there is no compliant way of connecting them unless you use a junction box and take a 4.0 cpc from it.