I have advanced co-operation with DNO Western Power to be precise

[The Ghost]

So attended a house (one of many) and the earthing arrangements fall far short of what is needed. No bonding such as gas bond the cable is there hanging around in the air by the gas meter. 8.75 ohm Zs at socket.

More importantly the cut-out has no earth to attach to. However there is an earth braid attached to the lead sheath to what looks to be originally a TN-S supply which goes into the cut out. However there is no terminal to connect the earth to.

Phone DNO and ask for an upgrade. They say 140 to 180 quid. Ok arrange appointment then think why should the customer be paying for this it is the DNO equipment.

Phone again and speak to the team dealing with it. Get a very perfunctory reply "We have no responsibility for the earth" I say yes you do under section 25 part 4 you must maintain and supply earth in new builds. "No we don't, we have no responsibility" I say No responsibility did you say and he repeats himself. Absolutely not interested in discussing it. OK.

This is beginning to really bug me now. So I use their complaint system and detail the problems not just me but we all have in getting some co-operation from the DNO. To be fair I did say most of the time they are great and do it for free and don't argue.

I also pointed they have nothing on their site regards this matter for contractors. And stated I am fed up of always pushing to get some co-operation from them for what is their legal duty.

Guy phones up and talks with me getting some more details. He unequivocally agrees there is a legal duty and even said things have moved on further from that and he accepted there is a need to supply and maintain earth. He will ensure a directive is sent out to teams urging them to comply with policies and legal duties and also put info on western power site regards upgrading and dealing with their equipment.

I asked him to email me and put that in writing. Will post when I get it. But...I think something may have moved! I suggest electricians who read this do not leave it at the DNO is not responsible, complain through proper channels and let us push back this is beyond a joke and I am fed up with this poor response. I can't continue with work in some cases and have said I will refer the mattter to HSE and they can battle it out with them. Enough is enough. Why the hell should the customer be shelling out for the DNO to maintain their equipment after all. Ok rant over.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

i have had similar arguments, i am fortunate that a relatives partner is one of the senior wpd engineers in my area! so generally any problems or people reading scripts back to me I speak to him and it gets sorted.
never the less I have had the maintaining an earth conversation with people in the wpd call centre its like banging your head against a wall.
They dont like admitting that they have such responsibility but they do. If they supply an earth they are legally bound to maintain it as in the event of a fault and its shown there earth not being repaired despite being informed it failed and then caused harm or a death -its the wpd folk looking at manslaughter!! when you mention that they usually get moving quite quick.
Well done @Vortigern and keep us updated on things.

 

[buzzlightyear]

it takes a sledge hammer to crack a nut Vort.

 

[buzzlightyear]

it takes a sledge hammer to crack a nut Vort

did you not get that Vort .

 

[Leesparkykent]

Just pull the fuse and connect your own main earthing conductor?

 

[The Ghost]

did you not get that Vort

Nope

 

[The Ghost]

Just pull the fuse and connect your own main earthing conductor?

I guess that is tongue in cheek? You are kidding right?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Nope

over your head has it gone ,never mind. keep plugging away.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I guess that is tongue in cheek? You are kidding right?

No I'm not kidding...have you never upgraded a main earthing conductor yourself or do you always get the DNO involved?

 

[Wilko]

Good job Vort.

 

[The Ghost]

do you always get the DNO involved?

Every time. I comply with legal and regulatory requirements to the best of my knowledge and ability. I do not do things which may cause liability to arise and I would not let you or anyone else under my aegis do anything to increase liability. I have met quite a few sparks who like you will get involved with such things. If anything goes wrong, not just now but even later, you are down the pan. And to be fair one spark told me he just put the main earth straight in to the neutral with the permission of the DNO so I know it is done. However I always structure liability tilting away from me every time let's just call it my business model.

 

[The Ghost]

keep plugging away

Ok I will...

 

[Leesparkykent]

Every time. I comply with legal and regulatory requirements to the best of my knowledge and ability. I do not do things which may cause liability to arise and I would not let you or anyone else under my aegis do anything to increase liability. I have met quite a few sparks who like you will get involved with such things. If anything goes wrong, not just now but even later, you are down the pan. And to be fair one spark told me he just put the main earth straight in to the neutral with the permission of the DNO so I know it is done. However I always structure liability tilting away from me every time let's just call it my business model.

Cool....is that a forum answer or in the real world?

 

[The Ghost]

I mean on one extension I am working on there was a soil pipe outside made of asbestos and the builders needed to get into it with a joint. I thought that is going to be difficult. Next time I was there soil pipe replaced in plastic and nobody know how. Never mind.

 

[The Ghost]

Cool....is that a forum answer or in the real world?

Very funny @Leesparkykent maybe you will never know. But yes I am like that in the real world. I do RAMS and get people working with me to read understand risks and sign them. And I tell them if they depart from any of the requirements they are off site never to return. It is all about liability from my perspective. Coming from a legal background as well I have worked in a trust and structured everthing around tilting liability away and I can assure one and all it works quite well. Bottom line is it worth taking risks after all our occupation has quite enough responsibility already without overburdening it with, let's say not well thought out strategies.

 

[The Ghost]

I know it sounds a bit much but I do take very seriously the risk of harm to others and myself. When I first started out doing this kind of work I used to worry at night if I had done the work safely. At least now with the testing we do I can at least know that it is safe to commission and it is working correctly. And don't forget it is me who is insisting on the same law applying to the big boys. How about that for some real life action?

 

[The Ghost]

keep plugging away

Ok give us a clue then

 

[buzzlightyear]

Ok give us a clue then

no .

 

[The Ghost]

no .

Give or the cat gets it!

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I mean on one extension I am working on there was a soil pipe outside made of asbestos and the builders needed to get into it with a joint. I thought that is going to be difficult. Next time I was there soil pipe replaced in plastic and nobody know how. Never mind.

Must be the seal fairies cousins the pipe fairy....

 

[buzzlightyear]

Very funny @Leesparkykent maybe you will never know. But yes I am like that in the real world. I do RAMS and get people working with me to read understand risks and sign them. And I tell them if they depart from any of the requirements they are off site never to return. It is all about liability from my perspective. Coming from a legal background as well I have worked in a trust and structured everthing around tilting liability away and I can assure one and all it works quite well. Bottom line is it worth taking risks after all our occupation has quite enough responsibility already without overburdening it with, let's say not well thought out strategies.

nowt pass you then VORT .

 

[johnduffell]

You could make a full time hobby arguing with big companies getting passed from one department to another and back in circles. Well done for getting so far, but are you sure it will stick or go into a black hole?

 

[The Ghost]

No comment! @buzzlightyear

 

[The Ghost]

but are you sure it will stick or go into a black hole?

Q.E.D. on that, I fear you could be right time will tell. Let us hope if some of us do push back against such insouciance on the part of DNOs' then something will materialise.

 

[littlespark]

Prince Harry dressing like a ---- again? What will his grandmother think

 

[PJElectricalSW]

Western Power is the worst I have had to deal with, out of the 9 DNO's in the UK 8 are fine and easy to get on with, WPD definitely let the DNO's down. I have had too many conversations with field/office engineers about putting (small) heat pumps on the network,

SSEN on the otherhand are the complete opposite, call them up and ask if a heat pump is fine on the network and how do I submit an application - The operator responds with what size fuse have you got there, if you have done your calcs we are fine you wont overload our network. No harmonic questions, what does it conform too, starting current questions.... Nothing. Ask if I can have it all in writing to confirm for our records, his response "yeah sure bud, whats your email address". Job done. Crazy disparity between the two!

 

[davesparks]

Just pull the fuse and connect your own main earthing conductor?

I can understand pulling the fuse to connect new tails, but opening up the live cutout to connect an earth into a service as old as that is a bit much in my opinion.

 

[PEG]

I can understand pulling the fuse to connect new tails, but opening up the live cutout to connect an earth into a service as old as that is a bit much in my opinion.

I would agree,and even though the person supporting self-involvement,is unarguably,a knowledgeable and experienced fellow,the ongoing risk of responsibility,is a problem.

I suppose,you could say,if the DNO were asked and gave you in writing,the permission of doing such a task,then the worry has gone.

If you know this is not the case or will not happen - then there is your base-line legal premise,for it possibly being a risk.

I will add one more thing. The investigations,which throw up issues of this nature,are often instigated,due to another persons error,or a random or unconnected incident.

The size and seriousness,of the incident,equates directly,to the depth and quality,of the investigation. Any,and i mean any,deviation from the rules and regulations,present at the time of the work,will be used as a reason to obviate liability,and therefore compensation.

A classic example of this,was the gas explosion,in Eccles near me,some time back,where the plumbers/heating engineers,had some of their work held up as non-compliant and possibly dangerous,even though it was demonstrated as standard practice,known to the gas authorities,and still carried out today.

An incident of such seriousness,which would bring one's own work in to scrutiny,would be a one-in-a-million deal...but we imagine what we would spend our lottery money on,and that's much greater odds.

 

[Deleted account]

Western Power is the worst I have had to deal with, out of the 9 DNO's in the UK 8 are fine and easy to get on with, WPD definitely let the DNO's down. I have had too many conversations with field/office engineers about putting (small) heat pumps on the network!

I've had complete opposite experience with western power. I find western power to respond very quickly and have always accept there responsibilities with me.
The western guys are brilliant . Always happy to help.

 

[leo79]

I've had complete opposite experience with western power. I find western power to respond very quickly and have always accept there responsibilities with me.
The western guys are brilliant . Always happy to help.

Totally agree.
We have to get in touch with them at least once a week and have never had any problems. We've had a few instances where contractors have not checked the earthing arrangement before starting the job, which causes a massive headache when the sparx turns up and there's no main earth because it should be reported. WPD have been known to turn up within the hour meaning the whole 'poo hitting the fan' is avoided.