2391 Practical

[La Poste]

Howdy folks.

It seems quite a few of us did the 2391 on the same night so I am guessing a few of us will be doing the practical soon.
It would be good if we could discuss any issues.

I have a link to a thread that Bruce Lee gave me and I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.
It really is the best of the best IMO.
Bruce really made the perfect post.
His post is on page 2 of the thread so if this link doesn't take you to page two you know what to do.

So once again thanks for the link Bruce Lee:
http://www.electriciansforums.net/electrical-courses-electrical-nvqs/24857-2392-1-practical-exam-question-2.html

 

[vaughant]

Good luck with it fella and don't panic,I had nothing to do with testing before I did the 2391,ok I'd had 10 years industrial experience including a 4 year ford multiskilled apprenticeship,but generally I found the course favoured those from a domestic background,so I was on the back foot from the off.

I found the fault finding/3 phase testing part simple,I was actually shocked how few people on the course had even worked with 3 phase,or even seen a contactor!!!!

But when it came to r1+r2,ze,zs etc the other boys were blowing me away.

I found the practical very nerve-racking at first,it was more of a concern to me than the exam if I'm honest,but as long as you've made your notes well,think methodically and don't panic you'll be absolutely fine.

I took the full 3 hours or 3.5,whatever the time was I took it all,yet the two lads doing it with me one took about 1.45 hrs the other 2,so I was obviously not flavour of the month!!!

I passed,I think about 50% of us did which by all accounts is good going (I think it's usually 30%??) and it was a very tough paper,the instructor was actually in the middle of complaining to city&guilds about it as there were so many glaring mistakes,I must admit a lot of the questions in it weren't part of what we were taught,but I've got it now and nobody can take it away from me.

 

[i=p/u]

So has it done anything in your favour since you obtained the cerrt????

 

[stansmith]

My prac in june consisted of a 3p board feeding a ring main, motor and a fused spur in fp200 and a sub main to a single phase db with rcd main breaker feeding two lighting circuits and another circuit s/o radial perhaps? The prac exam is less difficult than the prac at the end of the am2 i found it to be quite basic , but i did ask my boss to put me on testing before the exam so in all fairness i did have a headstart on mine but i think thisis how it went:

Safe iso- permission, knock off, lock off, cover off, prove tester, ten tests, prove tester, done(also do polarity while using testers all polarity checks and phase rotation)

Ze- remove earthing conductor 3 test each phase, replace earthing conductor immiediately!!! record highest

PFC-pefc + pscc, highest of six tests double and record

test bonding to water and gas pipes acceptable reading just tick confirm on sheet (supposed long lead but can reach with meter probes)

r1+r2 all circuits on 3p board link method at db etc, r2 test on motor circuit
three step ring test on ring circuit etc

r1+r2 all circuits on single phase db link method etc proven polarity on all circuits tick boxes

Ir test on 3phase db TURNING OFF RCD FOR SUB MAIN CIRCUIT ten tests, record

Ir test on sphase db AFTER REMOVING DIMMER SWITCH or any sensitive equipment , record

Permission to energise after all covers replaced

Zs all circuits record highest on each circuit

rcd test on sub main rcd breaker functional tests then happy days just fill out sheets to fin off i have all my notes from my 2391 prac and theory so if anyone needs info give me a shout ill dig them out before it all changes of course

almost forgot insulation resistance fault rig i had to test two faults simple all mcbs on locate which conductors the fault is between and the find which circuit it is on by elimination method to find the circuit either turning off mcbs or removing neutrals etc just record the fault dead short low resistance etc

live test rig earth loop on two test will be given mock fuse types and sizes for test have to either locate fault on tester or check with books to see if zs is of acceptable value for the fuze type/size etc and i think thats it

forgot the visual inspection rig also got to loacate 12 faults on a mock rig and record them no tests only visual inpection no grommet protection ,1p2x/ip4x faults incorrect mcb ratings cable sizes etc also very simple


not sure if the test rig is the same around britain but maybe?

 

[i=p/u]

Good post i think

 

[Sparky Ninja]

The practical should be similar in most colleges as they have to be designed to the spec that C&G dictate.
The spec for assessment 4 is attached...

 

[stansmith]

The practical should be similar in most colleges as they have to be designed to the spec that C&G dictate.
The spec for assessment 4 is attached...

thats the one i mentioned must be a standard rig all round all in all 7 circuits to test on that rig. ring main, motor, fused spur, sub main to db2, radial s/o and two lighting circuits one way and a two way happy days

 

[VMan]

Hi le Posta, how did you do in your written exam?? i passed mine,well so the test centre says anyway, just waiting for my practical results to be verified by c&g although i was told i had passed on the day ??!!?!?

I was nervous during the final practical assessment as i hadn't had much testing experience before hand but i got through ok. just ket thinking CRIPPLE PF and all was good.

good luck

 

[La Poste]

Thanks for the replies.
This is a great picture of the test board, really helpful.

Does anyone know what the small square at the top right of the three phase DB is?
If you look at the three phase DB, top right hand then go right you will find a square with
only a line and neutral attached to it, no other wires coming in or out.
It looks like some sort of switch but it doesn't switch anything, it does not seem to have a function at all.
Does anyone know what it is?
Thanks.

 

[stansmith]

View attachment 8048

Thanks for the replies.
This is a great picture of the test board, really helpful.

Does anyone know what the small square at the top right of the three phase DB is?
If you look at the three phase DB, top right hand then go right you will find a square with
only a line and neutral attached to it, no other wires coming in or out.
It looks like some sort of switch but it doesn't switch anything, it does not seem to have a function at all.
Does anyone know what it is?
Thanks.

It's a fcu fed in either pyro or fp200 just a radial circuit mate easy one to test like

 

[VMan]

View attachment 8048

Thanks for the replies.
This is a great picture of the test board, really helpful.

Does anyone know what the small square at the top right of the three phase DB is?
If you look at the three phase DB, top right hand then go right you will find a square with
only a line and neutral attached to it, no other wires coming in or out.
It looks like some sort of switch but it doesn't switch anything, it does not seem to have a function at all.
Does anyone know what it is?
Thanks.

on my practical it had a neon indicator in it too, had to remove the legs of the neon.

 

[silver surfer]

Just got back from my practical exam this lunch time. And even though i do a fair bit of testing i was still extremely nervous, more so than the written as with the written you can go back and amend any mistakes or slip an extra sentence in. Of course if you forget to do safe isolation or ask permission in the practical and then remember later youve still blown it !
I was the only candidate at the test centre, which didnt help my nerves.
Bruce Lees post was helpful in the extreme, i printed it off and was reading it at 5am this morning, Thanks BL.
Good luck to anyone still to take it.
Its not that bad.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Just got back from my practical exam this lunch time.

Did you pass it?
When I did mine the guy told me there and then.

 

[silver surfer]

Did you pass it?
When I did mine the guy told me there and then.

He said i had passed. But i think it has to get verified at c&g.

 

[Silly Sausage]

He said i had passed. But i think it has to get verified at c&g.

Congratulations. :50::50::50:

 

[stansmith]

He said i had passed. But i think it has to get verified at c&g.

well done mate

 

[cjp1]

He said i had passed. But i think it has to get verified at c&g.

Congatulations mate arty:

 

[La Poste]

Greetings.

I have my 2391 practical on Tuesday morning.
I do not do a lot of testing so I might ask some obvious questions.

One thing that bothers me is if phase rotation comes into it.
I have read that the examiners might ask for this.
I think I am right in saying the three phase motor is a three phase socket.
I know how to test IR, CPC continuity etc but phase rotation on this socket I am not sure of.
Can anyone advice me on what to do if this is asked?
Thanks.

Also here's a handy diagram:

 

[brucelee]

Hi mate phase rotation wont come into it

just the 3 phase socket outlet to test as the motor circuit and jsut for R1 +R2 from whichever line is the highest
and IR
calc Zs for everything except the sockets were you can use the 13A adapter

good luck mate

 

[brucelee]

Just got back from my practical exam this lunch time. And even though i do a fair bit of testing i was still extremely nervous, more so than the written as with the written you can go back and amend any mistakes or slip an extra sentence in. Of course if you forget to do safe isolation or ask permission in the practical and then remember later youve still blown it !
I was the only candidate at the test centre, which didnt help my nerves.
Bruce Lees post was helpful in the extreme, i printed it off and was reading it at 5am this morning, Thanks BL.
Good luck to anyone still to take it.
Its not that bad.

congrats mate

well done glad to help a little

this was my first time testing 3 phase so as I had to learn it from a book thought I would post something to help others such as yorself to try to understand what they want you to do

anyway once again WELL DONE

 

[JamesBrownLive]

The practical should be similar in most colleges as they have to be designed to the spec that C&G dictate.
The spec for assessment 4 is attached...

Widdler, do you have a larger copy of this diagram that you could attach? I'm finding it hard to make out at such a small size.

Thanks in advance.

 

[La Poste]

Another quick question.

If doing an R1+ R2 test on a SWA cable (If there is one on the test rig) would it be best to disconnect the SWA cable CPC from the MET and then connect it to the line conductor or would it be OK to leave the SWA cable CPC in the MET and just add a fly lead connecting the SWA CPC to the SWA line?

The reason I ask is the SWA armour is earthed and this will give us a parallel earth path along with the cable CPC.
The R1+R2 reading will thus be quite low.
I am not sure if it is best just to measure R1+R2 with the line and CPC and not the armour included.
Is there a recommended best practice?

It would be much quicker to connect a fly lead across the line and CPC's at the board and measure R1+R2 at the end of each cable and saving time is what it's all about but doing this to earthed SWA cable I am not sure about.
There might even be a break in the cable CPC and it will go unnoticed because the armour is being included in the test.

Thanks.

 

[La Poste]

Got one more.
The ring circuit on the three phase board, is it RCBO protected?

I'm asking because I am not sure if it will be vulnerable to a 500V IR test.
I have read it is best to remove the three phase contactor while doing the IR test but am not sure about this RCBO.

 

[Guest112]

Hi mate phase rotation wont come into it

just the 3 phase socket outlet to test as the motor circuit and jsut for R1 +R2 from whichever line is the highest
and IR
calc Zs for everything except the sockets were you can use the 13A adapter

good luck mate

In my 2391 we were required to prove phase rotation using the more advanced voltage testers at the mains during/just after the safe isolation procedure the testers with the L1 and L2 marked probes placing L1 probe on L1 and L2 probe on L2, then placing L1 probe on L2 and L2 probe on L3, and finally L1 probe on L3 and L2 probe on L1 easier if you imagine yourself holding the testers and also asked to test polarity at the mock 3 phase motor aka an adaptable box with accessible probes for testing plugged into the three phase commando socket from the DOL starter on the rig, might be different in other colleges but at mine it was required.

Also you dont do a R1+R2 on the motor circuit you do an r2 test instead

 

[Guest112]

Got one more.
The ring circuit on the three phase board, is it RCBO protected?

I'm asking because I am not sure if it will be vulnerable to a 500V IR test.
I have read it is best to remove the three phase contactor while doing the IR test but am not sure about this RCBO.

No the ring main fed from the three phase db isnt off an rcbo the only rcd in the rig is the sub main switch to the single phase db. but on the single phase db remove the dimmer switch off one of the lighting circuits befor IR testing turn off the sub main switch while testing IR on the three phase db and then test the single phase board separately after removing the dimmer switch.

 

[Guest112]

Another quick question.

If doing an R1+ R2 test on a SWA cable (If there is one on the test rig) would it be best to disconnect the SWA cable CPC from the MET and then connect it to the line conductor or would it be OK to leave the SWA cable CPC in the MET and just add a fly lead connecting the SWA CPC to the SWA line?

The reason I ask is the SWA armour is earthed and this will give us a parallel earth path along with the cable CPC.
The R1+R2 reading will thus be quite low.
I am not sure if it is best just to measure R1+R2 with the line and CPC and not the armour included.
Is there a recommended best practice?

It would be much quicker to connect a fly lead across the line and CPC's at the board and measure R1+R2 at the end of each cable and saving time is what it's all about but doing this to earthed SWA cable I am not sure about.
There might even be a break in the cable CPC and it will go unnoticed because the armour is being included in the test.

Thanks.

If an swa has an integral cpc disconnect it and test as standard r1+r2 as you mentioned otherwise you may miss a break in the cpc good thought. but in the 2391 prac i think the feed to the DOL starter is in swa but for that circuit you do an r2 test so this will not apply in the exam by the sounds of your posts it looks to me that you will fly through the practical assessment based on your knowledge and the preperation you seem to be putting into it beforehand good luck man

 

[La Poste]

I think the feed to the DOL starter is in swa but for that circuit you do an r2 test

I've been thinking about this.
If I do an R2 test only how will I be able to calculate whether the circuit breaker complies with max Zs in BS7671?
Presumably the circuit breaker for the three phase motor is a C type 60898, I will need to measure R1+R2 at some point or calculate it from the length of the circuit and the type of cable used.

I have yet another question.
I've been reading through some past posts here and there and have heard that some people fail because they don't place the lid on the three phase distribution board when they start to work on the single phase DB.
There is also the thought that if this were a real life situation when testing the three phase socket we would be remote from the three phase DB so do we have to lid up the Three phase board to test this socket?
How strict are these assessors?

I can understand if you walk away from the test rig to the other side of the room and leave it open you will be failed but has anyone ever heard of someone failing because they left the three phase board open when working on the single phase board or the remote three phase socket?

Thanks.

 

[Darren365]

My prac in june consisted of a 3p board feeding a ring main, motor and a fused spur in fp200 and a sub main to a single phase db with rcd main breaker feeding two lighting circuits and another circuit s/o radial perhaps? The prac exam is less difficult than the prac at the end of the am2 i found it to be quite basic , but i did ask my boss to put me on testing before the exam so in all fairness i did have a headstart on mine but i think thisis how it went:

Safe iso- permission, knock off, lock off, cover off, prove tester, ten tests, prove tester, done(also do polarity while using testers all polarity checks and phase rotation)

Ze- remove earthing conductor 3 test each phase, replace earthing conductor immiediately!!! record highest

PFC-pefc + pscc, highest of six tests double and record

test bonding to water and gas pipes acceptable reading just tick confirm on sheet (supposed long lead but can reach with meter probes)

r1+r2 all circuits on 3p board link method at db etc, r2 test on motor circuit
three step ring test on ring circuit etc

r1+r2 all circuits on single phase db link method etc proven polarity on all circuits tick boxes

Ir test on 3phase db TURNING OFF RCD FOR SUB MAIN CIRCUIT ten tests, record

Ir test on sphase db AFTER REMOVING DIMMER SWITCH or any sensitive equipment , record

Permission to energise after all covers replaced

Zs all circuits record highest on each circuit

rcd test on sub main rcd breaker functional tests then happy days just fill out sheets to fin off i have all my notes from my 2391 prac and theory so if anyone needs info give me a shout ill dig them out before it all changes of course

almost forgot insulation resistance fault rig i had to test two faults simple all mcbs on locate which conductors the fault is between and the find which circuit it is on by elimination method to find the circuit either turning off mcbs or removing neutrals etc just record the fault dead short low resistance etc

live test rig earth loop on two test will be given mock fuse types and sizes for test have to either locate fault on tester or check with books to see if zs is of acceptable value for the fuze type/size etc and i think thats it

forgot the visual inspection rig also got to loacate 12 faults on a mock rig and record them no tests only visual inpection no grommet protection ,1p2x/ip4x faults incorrect mcb ratings cable sizes etc also very simple


not sure if the test rig is the same around britain but maybe?

Hi Stan , I found your post very informative thank you. I’m an older person (47) coming into this game late but I have always worked in the industry at a lower level. My aim is to become a tester . If you have any notes I could browse i would be grateful as I like to be as prepared as possible for these exams.
Thanks mate
Darren Glover

 

[DPG]

Hi Stan , I found your post very informative thank you. I’m an older person (47) coming into this game late but I have always worked in the industry at a lower level. My aim is to become a tester . If you have any notes I could browse i would be grateful as I like to be as prepared as possible for these exams.
Thanks mate
Darren Glover

[email protected]

Welcome to the forum.

It would be worth starting a new thread to be honest, this one is rather old (2011).

 

[UNG]

Hi Stan , I found your post very informative thank you. I’m an older person (47) coming into this game late but I have always worked in the industry at a lower level. My aim is to become a tester . If you have any notes I could browse i would be grateful as I like to be as prepared as possible for these exams.
Thanks mate
Darren Glover

The member you have quoted is no longer on this forum