AMD 3 - Hopefully busting the myth of metal DBs

[baldsparkies]

Excellent post Mr Skelton. I am glad someone (you) has been ar3ed enough to actually look at the regs regarding this farse!!!

This is one of the best post in a LONG time on this forum. I have copied your post and gave a copy to a few of my colleagues.

The BS7671 makes reference to conforming to the "manufacturers instructions" for any accesssory/equipment, therefore if the manufacturers state that their board conforms to BS 61439-3, then it is perfectly acceptable.


Jay

What that man said,
Nice one Mr Skelts. :icon12:

 

[Anthony S]

Phone up the manufacturer and ask the question and see what answer you get ?

 

[Jay Sparks]

Phone up the manufacturer and ask the question and see what answer you get ?

I can't believe the big manufacturers haven't come out already and said summet!!
But then again, they will be rubbing their hands thinking about the extra dollars they will make when the ill informed and unskilled start buying there nice new, shiny, expensive metal ones.lol

Jay

 

[Anthony S]

I can't believe the big manufacturers haven't come out already and said summet!!
But then again, they will be rubbing their hands thinking about the extra dollars they will make when the ill informed and unskilled start buying there nice new, shiny, expensive metal ones.lol

Jay

I phoned one mate and asked the question are the consumer units I've already fitted prior to your new release models that comply with amd 3 non - combustible and they won't get into a conversation and won't answer the question. So to me if a manufacturer can not answer a simple question, then what can you say.

 

[netblindpaul]

So,
Quote 1,
Consumer units and similar switchgear assemblies will have to comply with the BS EN 61439-3 standard.
And most of them already do !!

No they don't most of them comply with BS EN 60439-3.
They don't have to comply with BS EN 61439-3 until 22 March 2015, as until then BS EN 60439-3 is still valid.
The manufacturers (well most) will wait until the last second, as it is cheaper.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Thanks for this post Mr DS, it's very interesting.

I'd like to have a read of BS EN 61439-3 myself but trawling through the internet it seems to cost about £150!!

Would anyone know how we can view this BS number?.. as otherwise it's a bit of a catch 22.. i.e you must adhere to this standard... but you cant read it!

 

[Silly Sausage]

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

I've posted this before ...
I've no idea how much sway that BEAMA have in all this, but I'll just bring it your attention again...

Clearing the fog around the new Consumer Unit Regulation - BEAMA | News

Quote from below the picture of the geezer,
“A further point for clarification is that plastic enclosures manufactured from 960 degree glow-wire rated material would not be classified as ‘non-combustible’ in the context of this regulation.

 

[GB.Kayak]

If something self extinguishes, by definition it cannot ignite. Ignition is the state of undergoing combustion. If it cannot ignite, then it is not combustible.

The company that produces the board can call it what they like. They can say that it is "rated at fifteen bananas on the Keanu Reeves scale", and so long as it passes the 960° glow-wire test, then it cannot be combustible.

D,


A consumer unit can undergo ignition and be certified compliant with BS EN 61439-3 by satisfying BS EN 60695-2-12, 10.1 Test criteria, sub clauses a), b) and c). Sub clause a) states: 'the longest sustained flames or glowing of the test specimin after the removal of the glow-wire, tR, extinguish within 30s'. It may therefore ignite and burn, 'combust', for up to 30 s! Some consumer units made of plastic materials may, however, be truly 'incombustible'. Unfortunately the wholesaler and installer of such boards are unlikely to be informed by the manufacturer whether their plastic board only passed the test regime by relying on these sub-clauses or not. The certification allows either product response under test. This would appear to be why BS 7671 has imposed a higher standard of 'incombustible' for domestic installation.


I have not carried out this testing but I suspect that from first principles, most plastics are derived from hydrocarbons and this class of chemicals are fuels; they burn when heat and oxygen are in abundance! Modify the environment by removing the heat, removing the glow-wire, or cutting off the oxygen and mostly combustion stops. However, if that heat input is continuous then the consumer unit is highly unlikely to self-extinguish!

 

[baldsparkies]

For a long long time boards from Denmans Basec range have complied with BSEN 61439-3

Product code is QFS-RRM14FLEXI

And they are referred to as Self Extinguishing ABS
IP2XC.

Its the Main Switch that is BSEN 60947-3 rated on these boards, not the enclosure.

 

[rompling]

A pandering to a fire brigade request not thought through ( surprising ) with a loopy long time scale to make it compliant as others have said loose connections / poor work man ship / ****e mcb connections prob more to blame than what they are enclosed in
But after all we are the blokes/ ladies that install and work with then day after day - what do we know ..,,,

 

[ipf]

Stuff it............back to the wylex rewireables with bakelite backs for me. I've certainly seen more burning damage to cb enclosures.

 

[baldsparkies]

I've posted this before ...
I've no idea how much sway that BEAMA have in all this, but I'll just bring it your attention again...

Clearing the fog around the new Consumer Unit Regulation - BEAMA | News

Quote from below the picture of the geezer,
“A further point for clarification is that plastic enclosures manufactured from 960 degree glow-wire rated material would not be classified as ‘non-combustible’ in the context of this regulation.

Have read it, very useful. (Not) Chocolate tea pot comes to mind.
love there definition of non combustible material ie There is no published definition of combustible material that aligns with intent of regulation 421'1'201. ?????
Yep chocolate tea pot !!!!!!!

 

[rustynails]

I'm of the opinion that I'm not against this Amendment. I appreciate that plastic is easier to fit than metal and is cheaper. I also take on board what the OP is saying about product standards and more to the point installer standards. If I knew nothing, I would hope that the person who said to me that my consumer unit needed up dating, as is usually the case, not often do you have the home owner phone you up and say, hey I think my consumer unit needs changing, would be installing products that are safe. As the guy from Beama says "this new regulation is intended to provide a level of enhanced fire risk protection". Metal is stronger than plastic. Metal would be deemed by most people on the street as being a non-combustible material. If you stopped and asked people in the street which material they would prefer on safety grounds, without them knowing all the facts, then I would be fairly sure most people would choose metal.

I wonder if the manufacturers prefer to sell metal CUs as it may be more profitable. They don't seem to be fighting the wording/semantics/interpretation of the reg at all.

Of course they do, don't we all want to be more profitable and they aren't going to be semantic about it.

I find that consumer unit changes in domestic households do not hold the same amount of weight as a boiler change, for example. The plumber gives you a new shiny Worcester Bosch 24cdi for 3k, brilliant I hear you say, along comes the noble sparky and says you need a new consumer unit. The safest and best solution is to have an 8 way rcbo consumer unit which complies with amendment 3, most larger manufacturers are making them in metal (Hager, Wylex, Schneider so far...) it will cost you £500, HOW MUCH! know way am I paying that for something that I don't really understand and doesn't make me warm or make my hot water nice and toasty, forget it. I would like to see domestic house holders being more educated on the products that are available to them and what they should have to be safe, but as with most electronic items in this world, all want the cheapest. This is not the correct attitude with regards to electrical safety. Fitting metal consumer units in domestic premises, screams safety, perhaps over the top but that’s what it’s all about today. I would also advocate the necessity for legalisation of electrical work which falls under part p, as written in this months Professional Electrician to help protect against the people who don’t give a sh*t.

 

[Mike Blair]

everyone takes electricity for granted. No one cares until someone is injured or killed. All people think is...if it works..great

 

[Engineer54]

Fitting metal consumer units in domestic premises, screams safety,

No it doesn't, ....it screams ''knee jerk reaction'' based on flawed data provided by LFB

I've seen cases of metal DB fires that if were located in typical domestic settings could have taken the the house with it. Now these were American DB's but they were metal construction and the wiring to these DB's were similar to that used in the UK, eg solid conductor T&E. The wiring was virtually completely destroyed for around half a metre beyond the metal DB enclosure.

If metal CU/DB's screams safety, why do you never see a metal consumer unit or DB in any German, French, Dutch, Belgium, etc, etc, etc domestic installation?? Why do they not have the same amount of consumer unit/DB fires, it maybe because there electricians are required to have a damn sight more training than 17 days/5 Weeks?? In fact you'll be lucky to come across a metal DB even in commercial and small industrial situations within Europe, ....Are they somehow using different plastic's to those used in the UK. Strange because the same manufacturers that supply the UK, supply our friends in Europe as well.

The same overall cause of the present problem(s) in the UK, will be transferred to the metal CU's, in fact it could well introduce more problems.....

 

[Marvo]

I still don't understand this farce, I've never seen anything quite like it. I've always held the UK standards in high regard until recently a couple of things have made me wonder. One was the knee-jerk earthing requirements for electric vehicle chargers which I understand they back peddled on for the mostpart and now this.... It's the fact they're attempting to electrically regulate an issue that is clearly not a electrical issue which means they're treating the symptoms and not the root cause which I suspect is a combination of falling materials quality standards and falling installer standards. Add to this the fact that there's a lack of clarity. I can understand the wholesalers ignorance, I wouldn't expect them to worry about anything other than their bottom line but even industry associations and groups can't agree on the implications and the precise standards of consumer units that should be installed.

 

[richy3333]

No it doesn't, ....it screams ''knee jerk reaction'' based on flawed data provided by LFB

I've seen cases of metal DB fires that if were located in typical domestic settings could have taken the the house with it. Now these were American DB's but they were metal construction and the wiring to these DB's were similar to that used in the UK, eg solid conductor T&E. The wiring was virtually completely destroyed for around half a metre beyond the metal DB enclosure.

If metal CU/DB's screams safety, why do you never see a metal consumer unit or DB in any German, French, Dutch, Belgium, etc, etc, etc domestic installation?? Why do they not have the same amount of consumer unit/DB fires, it maybe because there electricians are required to have a damn sight more training than 17 days/5 Weeks?? In fact you'll be lucky to come across a metal DB even in commercial and small industrial situations within Europe, ....Are they somehow using different plastic's to those used in the UK. Strange because the same manufacturers that supply the UK, supply our friends in Europe as well.

The same overall cause of the present problem(s) in the UK, will be transferred to the metal CU's, in fact it could well introduce more problems.....

Couldn't agree more. I wonder if this farce will be changed/altered at the next Regs amendment.

 

[Midwest]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

 

[Octopus]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

Only in domestic set ups from 1st Jan 2016

Nice plastic ones in commercial/industrial - go figure

 

[trev]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

However, a plastic CU is going to be perfectly acceptable in a commercial setting thus implying that the CU and the terminations it encloses are less dangerous than those employed in a domestic setting. Just like the introduction of Part P implied that electricity used domestically is more dangerous than a commercial or industrial setting.
Bolox. It's a sticking plaster over a gaping wound

 

[D Skelton]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

No record to be changed. Plastic to BS EN 61439-3 will still comply.

 

[Breeze]

I have been in contact with the Niceic( who we all know change there mind every ten minutes) in February they did confirm than as of then steel was the only non combustible material that would conform with the regs, I work for a large housing association and we have already fit over a dozen of Wyler and Crabtree star breaker,, they did confirm however it would be necessary in escape routes and under stairs, we as a company have an Niceic representative and an electruim rep coming to our next tool box talk so I will keep you guys inform. Personally I do agree with everything D Skelton but I don't know the last time people from the Niceic or the IET actually listen to the tradesmen the regs affect

 

[trev]

I have been in contact with the Niceic( who we all know change there mind every ten minutes) in February they did confirm than as of then steel was the only non combustible material that would conform with the regs,

So by implication, if I were to build a domestic CU out of copper it wouldn't comply. Hmmmmm wtf are we going to do now about all those copper bus bars that are out the in domestics?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

In the meantime ... :smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

[Midwest]

:sleep1:

 

[Guest77]

Until you lot start writing the regs. change the record, it's metal CU's in the UK, until some other idiot who writes the regs says otherwise. I think the rule about drinking & driving is ridiculous and should be changed, it impacts on my human rights.....:angel_smile:

Me too, it should be no alcohol at all in the system, the current levels are far too high.

 

[Guest77]

:sleep1:

You must be tired, after all that post contained so much BS it must have been exhausting to write it :biggrin:

 

[Midwest]

You must be tired, after all that post contained so much BS it must have been exhausting to write it :biggrin:

Ooohhh, someone is tired aren't they!