Fully installed prices

[Worcester]

Getting registered for VAT as a Solar PV installer will trigger their risk assesment / fraud team and lead you through a shed load of paperwork and proof (because you want money back from them - buy at 20% sell at 5%) , it can easily takes 12 -16 weeks to get VAT registered in that instance.

(10 days is their target for a normal business that pays them VAT!)

 

[Graeme Harrold]

That might be the case in the US, but in the UK its a regulated market. Nothing to stop you fitting panels (at retail prices)to your own roof (providing you satisfy Part P and LABC), you simply wont be able to access the FIT financial incentives ot hook back up to the grid.

 

[SRE]

Getting registered for VAT as a Solar PV installer will trigger their risk assesment / fraud team and lead you through a shed load of paperwork and proof (because you want money back from them - buy at 20% sell at 5%) , it can easily takes 12 -16 weeks to get VAT registered in that instance.

(10 days is their target for a normal business that pays them VAT!)

Took us just over 6 months and nearly 4 weeks to get payment back for the first one.

 

[SRE]

These prices are high only for those who decide, to install panels on their house or on their own company, without the aid of some sponsors. However, in our case the costs were quite small. So do not be scared by the prices cause there must be a way to install them without too much budget.

If you are in the USA - I've seen USA prices and they're much the same as ours

 

[pm79]

Hi I'm sorry to hijack this thread. I was wondering if any of you knowledgeable people can help me.

I have recently placed order for Schuco 3.995kwp system (235 x 17panels) with sma 4000TL inverter. The installer has offered me Sanyo HIP 235 HDE4 (17panels) with same inverter for £1000 more.

Now do you guys think that is it worth spending £1000 more on sanyo over schuco. I have been reading this website- people speak highly of sanyo but then I calculated output on sma software but the difference was only 43 units more in a year. I might be doing something wrong in calculations though.

what do you think in your experience?

 

[Graeme Harrold]

If your calcs are right this is about £750 over 25 years with 4% inflation.....

 

[BruceB]

An advantage of the Sanyo HIT is that you have less area for the same output. But if you have the space on your roof for the Schuco ones then why pay the extra for the Sanyo? I doubt there is the evidence they are more reliable to the extent of £1000. Schuco is a respectable brand.
Regards
Bruce

 

[pm79]

An advantage of the Sanyo HIT is that you have less area for the same output. But if you have the space on your roof for the Schuco ones then why pay the extra for the Sanyo? I doubt there is the evidence they are more reliable to the extent of £1000. Schuco is a respectable brand.
Regards
Bruce

I agree with you. Actually initially he offered me sanyo for £2000 more but when I said that it would be too much he gradually reduced it down to £1000 more on schuco quote. My roof is quite big so space is not really a problem. He said since Sanyo is a hybrid panel so will work better in both low and bright light conditions. But according to sma software the difference is not that much. As I mentioned earlier I may be doing something wrong in calculations.... confused.com

 

[SolarCity]

I've run the Sanyo HIT250w panels through my software with a Sunny Boy TL4000 inverter and compared these results with the Schuco 210w panels with the same inverter. My results are as follows:

4kWp Sanyo system - 3,547kWh annually

3.99kWp Schuco system - 3,230.3kWh annually

That's a difference of 317kWh. I'd say that is pretty substanital.

Other comparisons:

3.84kWp Suntech system - 3,350.7kWh annually

3.96kWp Sharp system - 3,198.8kWh annually

4kWp Romag system - 3,408.8kWh annually

All based on the Sunny Boy 4000TL inverter and climate data in Solihull.


317kWh equates to £137 a year in FITs and perhaps around £28 in leccy benefit/export.

 

[Worcester]

'Save on electricity bill costs' is dramatically being oversold.

People should really only consider the FIT's payments and 50% export, and, until studies have been done, treat the rest as 'bonus'.

To get the best 'electricity bill savings' requires people to match their usage with their generation. Ok for businesses when the majorioty of the usage is during the day, for domestic, people will be lucky if they use 50% of what they generate, so just because you are generating mores, you can't say that they will save more. Daytime generation curve is near enough a sine wave (see the SMA video on OptiTrac) Daytime domestic consumption has a peak early am, drops dramatically during the day, and peaks in the evening, long into the dark.

Check out the 'Average' Domestic profile not on economy 7 (it's what the 01 means on the MPAN )



Usage of generated power will depend upon the size of their system and their consumption. Iin an 'Average' domestic situation, spread over a year, where say, they will generate 2500kWh and their bills say they consume 3500kWh, most domestic users will be lucky to use 1000kWh of what they generate, put a 3500kWh system on the roof, and they will still only use 1100kWh of what they generate.

The problem is a bigger system just generates more when it's not being used, hence the discussions about monitoring export and the work we're doing with CurrentCost.

 

[pm79]

I've run the Sanyo HIT250w panels through my software with a Sunny Boy TL4000 inverter and compared these results with the Schuco 210w panels with the same inverter. My results are as follows:

4kWp Sanyo system - 3,547kWh annually

3.99kWp Schuco system - 3,230.3kWh annually

That's a difference of 317kWh. I'd say that is pretty substanital.

Other comparisons:

3.84kWp Suntech system - 3,350.7kWh annually

3.96kWp Sharp system - 3,198.8kWh annually

4kWp Romag system - 3,408.8kWh annually

All based on the Sunny Boy 4000TL inverter and climate data in Solihull.


317kWh equates to £137 a year in FITs and perhaps around £28 in leccy benefit/export.

Thanks Biggsolar for doing that. That was really helpful. Do you think if you use Schuco 235kw panel the calculations would be same as that's the one I was getting before.

 

[njcuk]

Thanks Biggsolar for doing that. That was really helpful. Do you think if you use Schuco 235kw panel the calculations would be same as that's the one I was getting before.

Is there a Schuco 235w panel accredited and on the market yet?

 

[1shortcircuit]

I can fully understand someone wanting assistance with pricing because at the end of the day most threads you read on here are complaining about getting undercut.

With this in mind though, I fully understand that this should be kept OUT of the view of the public eye. They'll batter you down regardless of what you quote.

Surely matters such as these should ONLY be encouraged/discussed in the area where many of us cannot access the information (hence red usernames etc)

Can't say that I myself would be too interested in breaking into this area, not keen on heights and would rather work indoors to be honest. Great read though:thumbsup

 

[Graeme Harrold]

'Save on electricity bill costs' is dramatically being oversold.

People should really only consider the FIT's payments and 50% export, and, until studies have been done, treat the rest as 'bonus'.

To get the best 'electricity bill savings' requires people to match their usage with their generation. Ok for businesses when the majorioty of the usage is during the day, for domestic, people will be lucky if they use 50% of what they generate, so just because you are generating mores, you can't say that they will save more. Daytime generation curve is near enough a sine wave (see the SMA video on OptiTrac) Daytime domestic consumption has a peak early am, drops dramatically during the day, and peaks in the evening, long into the dark.

Check out the 'Average' Domestic profile not on economy 7 (it's what the 01 means on the MPAN )

View attachment 5526

Usage of generated power will depend upon the size of their system and their consumption. Iin an 'Average' domestic situation, spread over a year, where say, they will generate 2500kWh and their bills say they consume 3500kWh, most domestic users will be lucky to use 1000kWh of what they generate, put a 3500kWh system on the roof, and they will still only use 1100kWh of what they generate.

The problem is a bigger system just generates more when it's not being used, hence the discussions about monitoring export and the work we're doing with CurrentCost.

Its down to you educating your customer to get the best out of their new and expensive system. Additional parts of my survey include quoting for immersion heater timers, and timers for dishwashers/washing machines. Im now doing battery calcs and costings to work out if investing in this coupled with low energy lighting throught the house is viable. Also looking for other methods of maximising on utilising the electricity produced. Suppose Im luckier than most as my wife works from home and can use what is being generated.

 

[netblindpaul]

hence red usernames etc

What is the score with all the coloured user names by the way?

I am getting "hassled" by the NIC and one of my wholesalers as to why I have not gone down the PV route yet!
I have a lot of experience with dc, electronics and inverters along with a plumber & roofer who I work with, which the wholesaler knows.
I just can't decide what to do!
Having set up ISO9001 systems for previous employers is the PV one much easier?
How much work is the paper trail?
I have the time & the funds to do the training etc. just not sure yet about the work load?
Market research in the area also yet to be done.

Do you all mostly do domestic or commercial?

Cheers

 

[Worcester]

@netblindpaul

Before you go down the MCS route, read all the other posts about VAT, how many quotes people do, the real and hidden costs, cashflow, marketing etc, doing the courses is a VERY small part of the cost - http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...swop-professional-photography.html#post284150

 

[netblindpaul]

I am already normal VAT reg & an NIC AC so that is some of it out of the way.
I have accounts in place and I have been involve in business for a while now.
The "wiring work" does not bother me in its self, nor do the calcs, I have done plenty of complex calcs before including business stuff & quoting.
One thing is I am on the verge of looisng a big commercial/industrial contract perhaps & I am looking for something to fill in.
I will go through the section here and have already read some of the posts.
I get a reasonable return on quote at the moment and I am in contol of my cost of sales, I suspect however that this will go up with the renewables work?

 

[SolarCity]

One thing is I am on the verge of looisng a big commercial/industrial contract perhaps & I am looking for something to fill in.

This is the best reason to go into PV in my opinion. Why? Because you needs bucket loads of time. A lot of our commercial work went dry when the recession hit and we needed something to plug the gap. The time that I have invested, and continue to invest, it staggering and we simply wouldn't be able to do it unless we committed to it 100%

 

[SRE]

We're just a small company so perhaps not representative but this week we''ll spend a full day doing 4 surveys (9am start - home by 9pm as the last one was 1.5 hours away from home.) It will take a day and a half at least to prepare the quotes to the required standard. Monday was spent chasing 4 different suppliers and 2 sub contractors to make sure everything is on site for our Friday install. The start of the week saw is working on the last stage of a 9.8kwp system that had been held up for 6 weeks by the DNO sub contractors (leaving us 10k out of pocket for the 6 weeks we were waiting) We also need to spend a day on marketing including updating the website, confirming local distribution of postcards, sorting out search engine optimisation etc. We've also got to speak to 3 different planning authorities, chase up some listed building consents and talk to gemserve about some obscure options for using a rental roof for personal electricity use. After that all of the operations manual information for the 2 installs needs to be collated, MCS, NIC, DNO registrations completed, fit applications made and handover visits arranged to our customers.

In the middle of all of that we need to take delivery from 4 suppliers, do some accounts, keep up to date with the latest changes, amend and record changes made and get some sleep. If you're not depressed - I am!!!! We've got cash in the bank and I haven't even had time to get it out

Interesting business if you can get on top of the paperwork though - slightly frustrating dealing with the fall out from nationals ...

 

[Worcester]

@ SRE, Sounds just like a typical week to me

 

[simon1982]

12 thousand for a 4kWp is competitive around Devon and Cornwall at the moment, I don't thinks it's the small traders so much more the newbie’s trying to get into the market place. Devon has 4 newly registered mcs installers every week. I'm a small installer and have been doing this over a year now. It doesn't help that there are people selling 4kWp DIY kits on ebay for 8K claiming your local installer will register it for around £2500. I hoping people won’t renew their registration next year there are 4 other installers in my village now... it's a joke ! :/

 

[Markc]

So much of the most recent posts sums up my life!

Survey, paperwork, more paperwork, second survey, sign contract, paperwork, order, accounts, take delivery, paperwork, arrange sub contractors, paperwork, conduct installation, paperwork, accounts, paperwork, return to check, paperwork, file paperwork, record file of paperwork, accounts! Have I missed anything?

One more thing as a comment on becoming accredited. Thats the easy bit the harder bit is the cash flow. We can see our account go from £40K to £2K in ONE day! Then wait three months to get the VAT back. Its the cash flow you will need. We cannot order more than 3 systems at a time and then we must have them installed within a 14 day window go give cheques time to clear.

 

[SRE]

Just got mine - counting the days til the next one - it's at 5k already

 

[Worcester]

@MEP-Solar, you can elect to do it VAT monthly it was actaully designed with the rebates in mind (more frequent paperwork, more frequent money, less cashflow needed)

 

[solarfred]

I am not sure you can do this as it is not a right as you have to qualify however anyone can opt to move their reporting date forward to the next month ; claim the rebate and then move the date back again. Isn't the system wonderful.

 

[Worcester]

@solarfred check out my post here: http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...um/33616-vat-get-your-money-back-quickly.html (20.5.2)