Gas pipe earth bond.

[hoover]

Hi all. Can anyone tell me if it is acceptable to bond the gas pipe outside of the house rather than just after it enters? The problem is I have to bond a gas pipe- it was noted on a recent pir that it wasn't done, problem is it enters the house through the roof space of a two storey house, miles away from the fuse board. Getting an earth cable up there may be tricky. Looking an easier way out.

 

[Spudnik]

Perfectly acceptable to do it close to the meter.

 

[ezzzekiel]

sometimes you can only bond where you can get to, providing its as close as possible and a note made on certificate stating where it is and why then no major issue.

 

[sparky3366]

Aye...as long as you don't work for a certain ex firm in Wales. That was my reason for them giving me the boot as a gas bond wasn't within 600mm of the meter/pipe entry...

 

[Guest123]

Externally is fine, as long as a standard 951 connection isn't left exposed to the elements.

 

[malcolmsanford]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that's the one Lenny, OK external if there is a gas meter enclosure, or you can adapt some kind of enclosure around the pipe and label it, but left open to the elements IMO would not be acceptable.

 

[Deleted member 19807]

i would use the blue or green ones not the red.

http://www.legrand.co.uk/en/en/liblocal/pdf/Earth clamps.pdf

or the new plastic type.

 

[dboi75]

I have just been informed by my electrician that we have to bond our gas pipe. The problem is that the gas meter is within a housing on the front external wall of my house and apparently he has to connect this back to my fuse box etc which at the farthest point on the rear of the house. Running this through the house is not an option, and the only opther idea he has is to run a conduit right around the perimeter of the property which will be an eyesore! Are there any other options? Can it just be earthed straight to the ground or is this something different?

 

[scotsparky]

thats totally different.

The electrician is right i am afraid. Without seeing the property i cannot give other ideas.

 

[Dan23584]

I have just been informed by my electrician that we have to bond our gas pipe. The problem is that the gas meter is within a housing on the front external wall of my house and apparently he has to connect this back to my fuse box etc which at the farthest point on the rear of the house. Running this through the house is not an option, and the only opther idea he has is to run a conduit right around the perimeter of the property which will be an eyesore! Are there any other options? Can it just be earthed straight to the ground or is this something different?

The method your electrician has suggested is quite a common one, if you cant get to it through the house.

 

[telectrix]

and until carlsberg make wireless bonding , you're stuck with it. the only other option would be to bond nearer to the CU, but that would contravene the " within 600mm of the point of entry" .

 

[chris murphy]

I have just been informed by my electrician that we have to bond our gas pipe. The problem is that the gas meter is within a housing on the front external wall of my house and apparently he has to connect this back to my fuse box etc which at the farthest point on the rear of the house. Running this through the house is not an option, and the only opther idea he has is to run a conduit right around the perimeter of the property which will be an eyesore! Are there any other options? Can it just be earthed straight to the ground or is this something different?

FROM CHRIS MURPHY - I HAVE ALSO POSTED THIS REPLY ON ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT EARTHING A GAS PIPE - ALSO IN ANSWER TO dboi75 - THIS IS WHY THERE IS A REFERENCE TO WHETHER THE GAS SUPPLY TO THE METER WOULD BE OF MILD STEEL PIPEWORK:


"Hello dboi75",

The Electrical Professionals on here WILL advise You correctly regarding Earthing the Gas Pipe to your Property - BUT - First a comment regarding whether the Gas Supply Pipe to the Meter is `Coming into Contact with Earth`:

Depending on the `Age` of this Gas Supply Pipe to the Meter it may NOT be a Mild Steel Pipe - The Practice of siting the Gas Meter outside a Property is a fairly recent one [Last 20 Years approx. in most cases] - This time scale would fall within the period where `Plastic` Gas Supply Pipework has been used - with Electrofusion Jointing.

So it does NOT necessarily follow that the Supply Pipe to your Meter is Mild Steel - Even if it was the Earthing of the Gas Supply Pipework FROM the Gas Meter TO your Property has to be carried out in the `Correct Manner`.

However - I did raise a point on here recently about WHY Electricians who I had used to Earth the Gas Pipework that I Install did NOT usually want to run the Earth Cable TO the Meter Box / Within 600mm of the Meter Outlet - and there were some comments about the Earth Connection being applied - `As the Pipe Enters the Building` - IF You can get confirmation of this as being an `Acceptable`/ `Within the Regulations` Method of connecting the Earth Cable to the Gas Pipework it would obviously be YOUR `Best Way` of adhering to the Electrical Safety Regulations.

Your Electrician obviously DOES NOT Feel that He can Adhere to the Regulations by doing this - OR He would have mentioned doing it this way ?


I thought that I should mention this to you - Just in case that it CAN be done this way [?]

I expect that there WILL be Conflicting Opinions about this `Method` of Earth Connection !


Chris - Registered Gas Installer / Heating Engineer.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

earth bonding?....gas and water pipes are extranious conductive parts......that is to say that they do not form part of the electrical system within your home and as such are "bonded".....exposed conductive parts are conductive parts that form part of the electrical system and as such are "earthed"......

 

[Richard]

Isn't there a reg somewhere that if copper water pipes can be confirmed continuious, then it is permisable to use them as conductors. I may be completly wrong, but I have a recolection of that from somewhere. Sorry i'v not got my book on me to check!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Isn't there a reg somewhere that if copper water pipes can be confirmed continuious, then it is permisable to use them as conductors. I may be completly wrong, but I have a recolection of that from somewhere. Sorry i'v not got my book on me to check!

well theres 542.2.1 and 542.2.4......

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and 543.2.2......543.2.6

 

[Richard]

Roughly what do they say? like I said I havn't got my book to hand!!

 

[oldtimer]

I had a customer who bought a new house in 1979 I did a PIR and found that both the gas and water was not earthed at all and he was not a happy bunny when I told him he would need to comply he inferred that I was just creating work for myself so you cannot win them all with comments like what has gas and water pipes to do with an electrical installation.

On a personal not my gas meter was moved outside 10 years ago the rest of the street got it done 6 months ago I got a card that basically said warning you do not have an earth cable at your gas meter and therfor do not comply with the current 17th edition so I dont know if they were trying to scare me to get them to do it at acharge no doubt or they were doing their legal duty in informing me.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well theres 542.2.1 and 542.2.4......

542.2.1: earth electrodes.
suitable earth electrodes shall be used. the following types of earth electrode are recognised for the purposes of the regs.....
earth rods or pipes
earth tapes or wires
earth plates
underground structural metalwork embedded in foundations
welded metal reinforcement of concrete (exept prestressed concrete) embedded in the earth
lead sheaths and other metal coverings of cables, where not precluded by regulation 542.2.5
other suitable underground metalwork


542.2.4
a mettalic pipe for gases or flammable liquids shall not be used as an earth electrode. The mettalic pipe of a water supply company shall not be used as an earth electrode. Other mettalic water supply pipework shall not be used as anearth electrode unles precautions are taen against its removal and it has been concidered for such a use.


543.2.2
a protective conductor may consist of the following
a single core cable
a conductor in a cable
an insulated or bare conductor in a common enclosure with insulated live conductors
a fixed bare or insulated conductor
a metal covering, for example the sheath, screen or armouring of a cable
a metal conduit, mettalic cable management system or other enclosure or electrically continuous support system for conductors
an extranious-conductive part complying with regulation 543.2.6


543.2.6
exept as prohibited in regulation 543.2.1 an extranious conductive part may be used as a protective conductor if it satisfies all the following requirements
electrical continuity shall be assured , either by construction or by suitable connection, in such a way as to be protected against mechanical, chemical or electrochemical deterioration
the cross sectional area shall be at least equal to that resulting from the application of regulation 543.1.1
unless compensatory measures are provided, precautions shall be taken against its removal
it has been considered for such use and, if necessary, suitably adapted

I dont know if this will help...but its there anyway....

 

[Richard]

That last one was the one I was thinking of. To my eyes that says that in certain instances, A water pipe could be used to provide a main protective bond to another service...(Holds can of worms away from face)

 

[oldtimer]

That last one was the one I was thinking of. To my eyes that says that in certain instances, A water pipe could be used to provide a main protective bond to another service...(Holds can of worms away from face)

This actually happens i have highlighted this before when a guy in a 1st floor villa flat does not have a good earth and the guy downstairs is in the same boat but he has earth bonding on his common gas and water pipes so when the guy upstairs gets a decent earth his is exporting it to the guy downstairs and the only way this would be found is if the guy downstairs got a PIR

 

[GLENNSPARK]

This actually happens i have highlighted this before when a guy in a 1st floor villa flat does not have a good earth and the guy downstairs is in the same boat but he has earth bonding on his common gas and water pipes so when the guy upstairs gets a decent earth his is exporting it to the guy downstairs and the only way this would be found is if the guy downstairs got a PIR

Well 22mm or 28mm copper pipe would certainly have a a very low resistivity......its just if a plumber decides to make alterations.........

 

[Sparky20002]

The only problem with using a water pipe as an earthing conductor would be if someone in the future cut the pipe and replaced it with plastic push-fit you then have lost continuity. Also if a plumber cut the pipe and there was a small earth leakage current passing through it he/she could get a tickle! So for these reasons i wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Richard]

Also if a plumber cut the pipe and there was a small earth leakage current passing through it he/she could get a tickle! So for these reasons i wouldn't recommend it.

You say that like it's a bad thing!!!

 

[Richard]

The only problem with using a water pipe as an earthing conductor would be if someone in the future cut the pipe and replaced it with plastic push-fit you then have lost continuity. Also if a plumber cut the pipe and there was a small earth leakage current passing through it he/she could get a tickle! So for these reasons i wouldn't recommend it.

And yes, I quite aggree with you. Normally I wouldn't even consider doing it. It's something thats worth knowing though.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello" - I should add that for many Years now MOST `NEW` Water Main Pipework from the Stopcock / Water Meter Service Isolating Valve TO the Property is NOT Copper and certainly NOT Lead - Most Water Supplies to Properties within the last 30 Years are via Plastic Pipe.

So I would state that even IF You see nothing but Copper Pipework within the Property - Unless You can actually confirm that the Pipe TO the Incoming Main Stopcock IS Copper [Or Old Lead] - You should NOT assume that is is capable of ANY Earthing.

This will seem obvious to the Electrical Professionals on the Forum - BUT - For the possible `Benefit of Others` [?].

Chris - Heating - Plumbing & Gas Installer.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So what test would we use and what would the max value be please chris...........

 

[MarkieSparkie]

The only problem with using a water pipe as an earthing conductor would be if someone in the future cut the pipe and replaced it with plastic push-fit you then have lost continuity. Also if a plumber cut the pipe and there was a small earth leakage current passing through it he/she could get a tickle! So for these reasons i wouldn't recommend it.

Any good plumber would not receive a shock when cutting the pipe, because he would bridge the cut with a temporary bonding cable.

 

[mister]

I have just been informed by my electrician that we have to bond our gas pipe. The problem is that the gas meter is within a housing on the front external wall of my house and apparently he has to connect this back to my fuse box etc which at the farthest point on the rear of the house. Running this through the house is not an option, and the only opther idea he has is to run a conduit right around the perimeter of the property which will be an eyesore! Are there any other options? Can it just be earthed straight to the ground or is this something different?

He/She is right but no requirement for conduit just the bonding conductor clipped to the building Min 10mm for the Gas.

 

[chris murphy]

So what test would we use and what would the max value be please chris...........

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

As I mentioned when We were corresponding on the Subject of Loft Insulation covering Electrical Cables - I am NOT an Electrician - Checking whether a Incoming Water Main is Copper or Lead just means finding the Entry Point into the Property / Building and then trying to confirm that the Mains Pipework within the Building is ALL in Copper [Lead still exists in a surprisingly large amount of Properties].

Obviously there IS an Electrical Test that can be carried out on an Earth Cable which is connected to an Incoming Water Main - Which I am sure that You will either know or some Members on here will describe for You.

Chris