genny system

[Bernard1991]

hi i have a thread under noisy contactor and said i would put annother thread up relating to a side subject from that thread

(please do not reply untill this part in the brackets is deleted just got the original design up for now not got enough time to show the changes that will be made from the knowlege i learnt in my previous thread shall get the second part of up tomorrow then remove this section in brackets many thanks bernie)

 

[Bernard1991]

Was them last three posts (#27, #29, #30) realy neciccerry I don't mind a little criticism but taking the Micky is uncalled for ok I may have been wrong about something and I admit it that's what these forums are for to double check these thins
but it doesn't give anyone the right to take wet it's immature understandable if you knew me and I was a complete ----er but you don't know me and I'm not

getting back to to the subject I want to get this sorted and get it done so it's safe either way I'll have a certified guy check it over and to get advice from

as as for starting the genny my dad can install a proper starter and auto choke to it (he used to work on the engines that power small gennys, mowers and other garden equipment he's a old school mechanic)
then I can put together a little unit in the house with a start and stop key or button or combination of the two and the fuel tank is simpler just find a tank with a larger capacity and install it where the genny will be permanently fixed
then have a manual change over switch, all that if I choose to not use a completely automatic system
so I shall have a look on that site that Geordie spark gave me

 

[spark 68]

Here is something for you to have a look at Bernard:

Automatic Transfer Switches: FW Power Diesel Generators

I am not suggesting you buy from these, nor recommending them either, (no connection to them etc.etc.), just purely so you have an idea what is involved.

As others have said the generator you have will more than likely be unsuitable for what you have in mind.

 

[Lighthouse Phil]

Used Generators for Sale by FW Power - New and Used Diesel Generator Supplier

OP, take a look at the Lister engine / alternator for sale here. Its a Lister HR2, a work horse of an engine, coupled with a decent alternator., but the control cabinet has a new 'Deep Sea Unit' as its brains,, these units can be programmed to do so much and give so much info about the state of the engine. All new cabinets that are being installed on Irish Lighthouses use these Deep Sea units.

 

[timbobelfast]

Hope you have thought about the noise aspect of the gen because I have lived on a gen power army base lol. And the noise is intense even in a well designed gen pad lol

Have you also found out why the prime power is so un- reliant also? Is it location?

Who is the DNO?

 

[Bernard1991]

Hi timbobelfast
if I read your questions correctly I'm not sure why our main supply from our dno (westernpower) sometimes cuts out, it's more reliable than it was, it used to allways go out when the weather changed but now it's random last time was dude to maintenance of the lines and the transformer for my area is in a near by field (we live out I the country side nearest town is two miles)
the reliability of our mains is good just handy to have a back up incase the power is off for a long period and with news reports of planned black outs in 2014/2015 we will be the first to be turned off
heard reports that they won't be so bad (say the government) but I don't believe it by a long shot but let's not drift to polotics allways end in arguments lol

and if your last question was to see if I know who they are there the company who own the power network and operate it

I used to install solar electric systems for a company (I just put inverter up and connected everything up tested and switched it all on) and they had to inform the dno for that area about the install amongst other things I wasn't involved in the office I was just the installer and the office signed it all off from the test results I sent them then after they told me the readings where acceptable I then done the big turn on (but that's annother subject and won't go into it too much)

as for noise I know some can make be quite loud so It would have to be shut down after a certain time of night

 

[UNG]

Was them last three posts (#27, #29, #30) realy neciccerry I don't mind a little criticism but taking the Micky is uncalled for ok I may have been wrong about something and I admit it that's what these forums are for to double check these thins
but it doesn't give anyone the right to take wet it's immature understandable if you knew me and I was a complete ----er but you don't know me and I'm not

getting back to to the subject I want to get this sorted and get it done so it's safe either way I'll have a certified guy check it over and to get advice from

as as for starting the genny my dad can install a proper starter and auto choke to it (he used to work on the engines that power small gennys, mowers and other garden equipment he's a old school mechanic)
then I can put together a little unit in the house with a start and stop key or button or combination of the two and the fuel tank is simpler just find a tank with a larger capacity and install it where the genny will be permanently fixed
then have a manual change over switch, all that if I choose to not use a completely automatic system
so I shall have a look on that site that Geordie spark gave me

In your first paragraph you summed yourself up perfectly if you take life to seriously I don't recommend posting anything on a forum

re post #29 You seem to have over looked a lot of things so I was just making sure you had addressed the fuel supply

I assume you are aware of the fuel storage regulations for your larger tank or is that just another minor technical problem to sort

This whole thing to me appears to a very expensive solution to provide a small amount of power as the generator would need to be run regularly to prevent engine and fuel system problems and then you have the problem of the fuel in the tank going stale before it is used as well

You might actually be better with a battery bank and an inverter

 

[Engineer54]

Used Generators for Sale by FW Power - New and Used Diesel Generator Supplier

OP, take a look at the Lister engine / alternator for sale here. Its a Lister HR2, a work horse of an engine, coupled with a decent alternator., but the control cabinet has a new 'Deep Sea Unit' as its brains,, these units can be programmed to do so much and give so much info about the state of the engine. All new cabinets that are being installed on Irish Lighthouses use these Deep Sea units.

Is that Lister HR2 engine 2 stroke or 4 stroke??

 

[Engineer54]

You might actually be better with a battery bank and an inverter

Battery storage for any decent capacity or length of time via an inverter, is going to be far more expensive, in both the short and long term of the system than a standby genset.
Hazard a guess of the cost of batteries that can supply say a 5kw load for 3 hours through a suitably sized/rated inverter??

No idea about petrol fueled engines, as i've never used them, but you shouldn't have much if any of a problem with modern diesel fuels. Nothing stopping you running the system for 15 minutes or so say every month, to keep the all the moving parts of the engine lubricated.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

2 stroke or 4 stroke

The HR series are aircooled 4-stroke D/I diesels of about 1000cc P/C, widely used for construction plant, gensets, pumps, marine aux. duty & small inland craft propulsion. Also made in watercooled form as the HRW. Long time since I had one of those apart!

 

[Knobhead]

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

Those Listers were very popular for gen sets. The pub that my dad used to go to had its own generator because it was way out in the country. I think I was about 6 years old and liked to watch the genny and listen to it while he was drinking his pint.

A couple of years later, there was a lot of houses being built around us and we kids would wander around the building sites watching the men working - just try doing that nowadays. we saw front tipping dumpers, cement mixers, plaster mixers, saw benches and God knows what else all powered by these Lister diesels. They were air cooled and would run day in & day out rain, hail or shine. You'll find them as the propulsion unit on narrow boats too.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If you like Listers, see my 1941 searchlight set:
Hand-starting Lister 22kW Searchlight generator - YouTube
Second start after a few decades standing idle.

 

[JD6400]

Not sure about white diesel , but by all accounts as from early last year red diesel now has to have a % of bio diesel blended into it .
This has been causing a lot of problems in new machines as it has been gelling up in pipe work and fuel pumps if left to stand for long periods !
We even had a 2012 drier go down last season because the owner had filled it with red at the end of the last season , I eventually found it had jammed up the non return back to the tank .
One of the agricultural dealership's that we do a lot of work with have been pushing an additive that goes into the main holding tank ( and vehicle tanks as well if needed ) , it is meant to kill " fuel bugs" !
By all accounts their is such a thing !!!?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

We tend to use bio-free red in the boat for exactly that reason. It's a bit more expensive but available right where we usually moor which makes it more attractive. The tank is quite large relative to the engine consumption so the turnover is fairly slow. Even the most fuel-tolerant diesel engine with heated lines that can burn heavy residual oils, won't work on jelly.

 

[Engineer54]

The HR series are aircooled 4-stroke D/I diesels of about 1000cc P/C, widely used for construction plant, gensets, pumps, marine aux. duty & small inland craft propulsion. Also made in watercooled form as the HRW. Long time since I had one of those apart!

I'm basically more used to far larger standby and to a lesser extent prime power gensets. Probably the smallest being 1200 KVA but generally in the 1600 to 2200 KVA either singles or twin sets. My choice of engine for standby duty is the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel. They can't be touched for bringing the load on line in the shortest possible time, totally outclasses any 4 strokers. Wouldn't use a 2 stroker for prime power though, that is definitely the 4 strokers domain....

Lister will be diesel, lovely things.

One thing about large fuel tanks, both diesel and petrol go “sour” after six months or so due to evaporation and settlement.

To keep the engine in condition it needs to be run on load regularly. Otherwise it cokes up. I’ll guarantee it fails when you need it!

Never had any problems with diesel fuel storage to be totally honest, (most of ours were 1 or 2 week bulk storage tanks on the standby sets) and most of the projects i've worked on have been in the hotter climates. Even the old problems of extreme cold affecting fuel oils have been virtually eliminated by the additives they use these days. Yes the engines are/were run regularly, no more than an hour a month (whether they had been in service or not) on in situ 60% load banks.

 

[shanky887614]

Save your self a headache and get a battery bank and inverter, if you wanted chuck a couple solar panels in to recharge batteries

 

[Bernard1991]

There's a stabiliser you can buy for petrol that stops it going off that said I got a old bsa d7 bantam and the two stroke fuel in it is over three years old and the old bike runs off it, it must be as combustible as diesel by now
returning to the subject there's no way I can talk my dad to having batteries, l-ion will cost a bomb and acid types will be wrecked every two or three years from the frost and cold weather then there's the inverter and I have never heard of a cheap inverter with a 5kw out put and to sustain that output for just an hour I would need a lot of amp hours on the battery/ 's (or higher voltage depends on what the inverter runs on and requires) where with a petrol genny it's easy if the plug gets coaked up whip it out get a wire brush on it and should be fine (so long as it's a good make plug champion is a brilliant make can forget ngk plugs, in the three years I had my first car I only had to swap the plugs once which was from ngk to champion) and exhausts don't really coak up its two stroke engines that are horrible for coaking up the exhaust

what I will do later today is ill drag off the rubbish on my genny get it's details google them and get all the info about it then post on here that information if it's not suitable for my purpose but can be made suitable then if it's not more costly to sort the existing genny than get one Allready suited then I'll go down that road

 

[Engineer54]

Save your self a headache and get a battery bank and inverter, if you wanted chuck a couple solar panels in to recharge batteries

I'm sure he would, if you care to pay out for them!! As i stated earlier, check out the cost of those batteries, and then add the cost of solar panels/inverter system!!

 

[Bernard1991]

I'll take a look
any ideas where the best place is to look google is sending me in circles how ever I found one 4.4kw that can be charged by a generator or solar and even charges it's self off the mains and has a built in ats

 

[Engineer54]

I'll take a look

You would be far better off looking at the cost of that Lister driven genset, and with only 400 run hours... That set-up will probably give you years and years of worry free service with minimum but adequate maintenance... Still may be well out of you're price range mind!! lol!!

The battery/inverter route is a non starter unless you have the storage space with a free or forced airflow, to cater for the amount of batteries you'll require, even if it's designed for 3KW for 3 hours. Anything under 3 hours, and you're basically wasting your time, as far as covering power outages for a domestic setting...

 

[Bernard1991]

Looking at that battery backup system I found I don't think it will be practical a battery back up our main fuse is right above the door in the kitchen
i could probibly squeeze a manual change over switch or a ats in the box everything is in

but I got a picture of the plaque thats on the alternator of the genny sorry its upside down strangely that's how it is on the alternator I'll keep looking to try and find the manufacturers data sheet have also found something that may be of interest (looks like the code number to its cirtificate of compliance also in attached images)

 

[Lighthouse Phil]

We had a problem with our diesel once, there was a 'bug' in one of the tanks, a virus which grows in the diesel. There is a very cheap additive that we now put in all our diesel tanks, a 25ml bottle costs around £13 and treats 1000lts.
Some lighthouses would have 30,000 litres of diesel which we don't want to be affected by the bug,,i'll post details of the treatment here tomorrow if any one wants it.

 

[Bernard1991]

Hi Phil yeah post it I'm quite intreeged never heard of a bug in diesel before even a local farmer who scrapped his tractor with a tank of diesel for ten years didn't get this big in the tank
then again it was probibly proper cherry diesel in it but he dragged the old girl out the nettles and she soon struck up

 

[JD6400]

Older gear can handle it to a certain extent . It is new common rail engines that really get in to trouble , apparently .

 

[Bernard1991]

Ahh
them common rail diesel engines are amazingly efficient my dads 2002 volvo s80 2.4 automatic turbo diesel does 40mpg to work and back (short distance) and took it to Cornwall it averaged 61.8 mpg unbelievable for a 2.4 auto car

 

[Engineer54]

We had a problem with our diesel once, there was a 'bug' in one of the tanks, a virus which grows in the diesel. There is a very cheap additive that we now put in all our diesel tanks, a 25ml bottle costs around £13 and treats 1000lts.
Some lighthouses would have 30,000 litres of diesel which we don't want to be affected by the bug,,i'll post details of the treatment here tomorrow if any one wants it.

Yes post the treatment details it'll be an interesting read!!

 

[Bernard1991]

It sure will engineer
did you have a look at them pictures I put up in post #51 mate?
Im still looking for data on the genny if there's anything in particular you need to know I'll try and find it

 

[Engineer54]

It sure will engineer
did you have a look at them pictures I put up in post #51 mate?
Im still looking for data on the genny if there's anything in particular you need to know I'll try and find it

I did, that certificate of compliance does not seem to be applicable to your 6 KVA genset. An internal wiring diagram would be helpful. You'll also need to confirm or otherwise, if this genny uses a floating earth system.

 

[Bernard1991]

Ok mate I'll keep digging and see what I can find cheers

 

[Bernard1991]

Emailed the manufacturer of the alternator and got a instruction manual for fitting the alternator unit here is the wiring diagram out of it