I thought they were history

[trev]

"prisons nowhere near as harsh and unforgiving as it should be"
You know this how exactly?
"compensation for attacks while in prison is a joke" if society puts them there then they should kept safe otherwise we're no better than Stalinist Russia.
" being able to have access to education that would cost thousands for a normal tax payer" Being poorly educated is often the reason people end up there. Rehabilitation has to be part of the system.
"beaten, tortured and abused" Yes, let's join that exclusive club of countries which have no regard for human rights tomorrow, the government want us to anyway so we may as well. Which human right do you want rid of first?
The right to vote?
The right to freedom from arrest without just cause?
How about the right to a fair and open trial?
Or freedom of belief?
The right to criticise the government?

 

[telectrix]

says a lot for the american justice system. their lawyers play trials as a game. it's all in the winning. whether the accused is guilty or not is irrelevant.

 

[trev]

That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the list of people who were on death row in the US and were later exonerated of the crimes they were found guilty of committing.

Bloody hell, 146 people who (under the British system of executions being carried out after 3 Sunday from the date of sentencing) all would have hanged.
The magic, infallible DNA being part of the evidence in 20 of those cases.

 

[Marvo]

The interesting thing is that you would think with DNA evidence in the more recent convictions they would be more foolproof and less likely overturned later on but;

To begin with, exonerations from death row have not declined in recent years. In fact, the number of people that were freed in 2003 was more than in any year since death sentencing resumed in 1973. Twelve people were cleared of their original offense in 2003. Moreover, the average number of exonerations has steadily increased in each quarter of the total years covered in this report: 1973-2004 (see chart on p. 2). source

Also please note the list I originally linked was up to 2004 only but it was more than sufficient to make the point anyway which is that the legal/justice system is fundamentally flawed ergo introducing the death penalty will undoubtedly result in many deaths of innocent people.

I'm sure if you scratch around online you'll find more recent statistics.

 

[dingledong]

That's American though
Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence ,
And trev prisons aren't that bad , not good but not bad they could be a lot worse

 

[Marvo]

That's American though....

There's no UK statistics available because you don't have the death penalty. The US is a fair indication though, they have an adversarial justice system same as the UK, their police force has similar involvement in the prosecution, the presumption of innocence is given to the accused until evidence beyond reasonable doubt refutes this and they have similar evidence techniques available such as DNA etc. If you want to go down that road you'd need to state differences in the two systems that you could point to which might mean the outcome in the UK would be that prosecutions would be more reliable.

 

[Marvo]

......Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence

I don't personally know 'jihadist John' but pointing at individual candidates for the death penalty doesn't detract from the fact that if you do introduce it you need to have the stomach for the inevitable innocent victims of the legal system who will have been wrongfully executed. Going by the hoo-har you get in the UK press everytime there's a wrongful conviction even when you don't have the death penalty I get the impression as a nation you don't.

 

[dingledong]

All people who go to court are individuals ,so every case is individual
I can only think of a couple of things that are different between us and US
So your saying there is no crime heinous enough that would warrant the death penalty in your view
War criminal a person like Adolf eichmann
A serial killer ,
I do think there are some crimes that do deserve the death penalty but as you say would innocent people be killed ! ! !
It's a hard decision but with modern forensics etc I would say the odds are getting better on correct convictions

 

[Geordie Spark]

I quite agree with you trev and your arguements against are the same I used to and in some respect still believe but now we have the technolgy to prove beyond doubt the guilt of the people who commit these crimes. The examples you quote such Evans are very few and I hope that the evans/ christie case would have a different out come today has would the guilford 4 & birmingham 6. Take the hanratty case his family fot years beleived he was innocent and was wrongly hanged but when his remains werw exhumed and tested for his dna it proved his guilt. Im affraid getting the wrong person today is so slim the using that arguement against the return has long since gone.

I admire your optimism and would say you have a Hell of a lot more faith in technology than I ever will have and even if technology is 101% reliable it still relies on a human to operate it and -as we see here on this forum - some humans are real muppets!!

 

[dingledong]

But don't you think that the thought of a possible death sentence would deter some people from committing some crimes ?

 

[Marvo]

.......So your saying there is no crime heinous enough that would warrant the death penalty in your view
War criminal a person like Adolf eichmann
A serial killer ,
I do think there are some crimes that do deserve the death penalty but as you say would innocent people be killed ! ! !

You're asking my personal opinion of whether the death penalty is a fitting punishment? This has nothing in common with the question of whether it should be introduced.

I've already stated I think it shouldn't be introduced because of the sheer volume of innocent people convicted.

If you want my opinion on whether I'd personally like to see perpetrators of heinous crimes executed then yes, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I also wouldn't have a problem with them having various internal and external body parts surgically removed and force fed to them beforehand but this would only be at a time when the justice system is foolproof which is never which means I'd still never advocate the death penalty.

It's a hard decision but with modern forensics etc I would say the odds are getting better on correct convictions

Modern forensics don't seem to be reducing the figure as I mentioned in this post. http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...-thought-they-were-history-3.html#post1011838

 

[shanky887614]

You're asking my personal opinion of whether the death penalty is a fitting punishment? This has nothing in common with the question of whether it should be introduced.

I've already stated I think it shouldn't be introduced because of the sheer volume of innocent people convicted.

If you want my opinion on whether I'd personally like to see perpetrators of heinous crimes executed then yes, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I also wouldn't have a problem with them having various internal and external body parts surgically removed and force fed to them beforehand but this would only be at a time when the justice system is foolproof which is never which means I'd still never advocate the death penalty.



Modern forensics don't seem to be reducing the figure as I mentioned in this post. http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...-thought-they-were-history-3.html#post1011838

i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!

 

[Marvo]

i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!

But in the 15 years they might serve they're supposed to be rehabilitated into a person that can be reintegrated into society. If they're not then the correctional services aren't doing their job

 

[shanky887614]

But in the 15 years they might serve they're supposed to be rehabilitated into a person that can be reintegrated into society. If they're not then the correctional services aren't doing their job

not for mass murder marvo, for accidental murder then maybe.

 

[trev]

i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!

It's not just the case for murderers though Shanky. All prison inmates get remission for good behaviour, I think it should be the other way round. You'll serve all your sentence but if you act up you'll get time added on.

 

[Guest77]

classing all Immigration as scroungers and the government winding people up about it, and now the death penalty, we as a nation need to move forward into the 21st century, not back to the 15th.

 

[Adam W]

trev the problem with 'human rights' is that they never seem to benefit the people who most need them, and always seem to be exploited by those who know how to play the system, ie those who are least deserving of them.
Take Abu Qatada - he was a nuisance. An expensive nuisance. He claimed to hate this country yet wouldn't leave. Him and his family were claiming a fortune in benefits yet not only not contributing but trying to bring down the country that was supporting him. Meanwhile decent, hard-working people get short-changed by the system and are left to struggle.
It's the same with the benefits system - people work their whole lives paying into the system, then when they come to need some help in return they're told they're on their own, meanwhile the likes of Peter Rolfe are there shaping their lifestyle around milking as much out of the system as possible.

Nobody is against helping the poor and needy, but giving to anyone who holds out their hand is an unsustainable model. Often the most deserving are those too proud to ask for help.

 

[trev]

Why you don't see the human rights act working for the people who need them is that it sits quietly in the background until someone needs it just saying "naughty naughty" to the government and their various agencies.
You would notice it if it were gone trust me, it would leave us all open to any abuse that any government decided to throw at us.
Theresa May stood up at the tory conference last year banging on about how one particulatr miscreant couldn't be deported, her exact words- "I'm not making this up, because he had a cat"
The only problem with that is that she did make it up, so if a senior minister is prepared to lie to her own conference and to the electorate what else is she prepared to do?

 

[dingledong]

Yes lots of old age pensioners are to proud to claim what is rightfully theirs it seems . Will wait 6 months for a hospital appointment with no moans

 

[dingledong]

Why you don't see the human rights act working for the people who need them is that it sits quietly in the background until someone needs it just saying "naughty naughty" to the government and their various agencies.
You would notice it if it were gone trust me, it would leave us all open to any abuse that any government decided to throw at us.
Theresa May stood up at the tory conference last year banging on about how one particulatr miscreant couldn't be deported, her exact words- "I'm not making this up, because he had a cat"
The only problem with that is that she did make it up, so if a senior minister is prepared to lie to her own conference and to the electorate what else is she prepared to do?

How do you know it was made up as I remember that

 

[Adam W]

How do you know it was made up as I remember that

BBC News - Theresa May under fire over deportation cat claim
By the sound of it it wasn't entirely fabricated, but misquoted - the guy facing deportation had used the fact that they had got a cat together as proof of a stable relationship, not simply that he wished to stay in the country for the sake of the cat.

 

[Guest77]

She is my next bet at the leader of the Tory party, I really believe she can become their leader, just like thatcher except even uglier lol

 

[dingledong]

Thanks Adam I thought it was a misquote but could not remember

 

[Adam W]

I view the human rights act in a similar way to unions, and to a degree the police - you put up with their minor shortcomings and pay your dues every month just in case you need them, then when you do need them they turn round and say there's nothing they can do.

 

[Guest77]

Nobody is against helping the poor and needy,.

Iain Duncan Smith wants to tax disability benefits - Home News - UK - The Independent :smilielol5:

 

[dingledong]

At least the Tories accept women leaders when John Smith died Margaret Beckett should have become the prime minister
It seems the Labour party is sexist

 

[Guest77]

Current Female Members of Parliament | UK Political Info

 

[Adam W]

Iain Duncan Smith wants to tax disability benefits - Home News - UK - The Independent :smilielol5:

What's your point?
'The rich' don't suddenly need benefits just because they suffer a disability or get old.
It's like Alan Sugar getting a state pension and cold weather payments - he doesn't need it, doesn't want it, and the money would be better spent on other things, or redistributed to those who really do need it.
I thought the left wing ideal was supposed to be taxing the rich to help the poor, well it seems this is exactly what IDS wants to do.

 

[trev]

Current Female Members of Parliament | UK Political Info

Mike that graph means nothing mate.
"The chart below shows parties which have female MPs and compares the number of female and male MPs in each party, with men shown in grey and with their number in parenthesis."
Labour with 169M male members (sorry. Fnarr fnarr)
Conservatives with 256M

 

[Adam W]

Current Female Members of Parliament | UK Political Info

Yes, Milliband filled his front bench with women as a gimmick. Labour artificially inflated their count of females with 'women-only shortlists' instead of putting forward candidates based on merit. There has never been a female party leader though, and there isn't likely to be either; it's like the left's stance on immigration - 'they can have jobs as long as they're not after my job'.