Labour Manifesto

Darkwood · Dec 20, 2019

When we go into elections or vote on referendums it is exclusively done so that we have the losers consent, this is and was the case for the EU referendum and Scotland's independence vote.. or so we thought.
It seems that in light of the EU referendum result going against the expectations and will of the establishment and the mainstream media we have seen yrs and yrs of questionable funding pumped into groups and people who support EU/Remain positions, there has been hypocrisy and irony throughout, Trump makes a comment to back Boris up and all of a sudden there is uproar from the remainers that he is interfering in our politics yet they forget that Obama came out and said if we leave we are going to the back of the queue for a trade deal (strange comment to make when he knew he wouldn't actually be in office given the USA's impending election).
With regards the SNP, Oh! Where do I start, Scotland also voted in their own referendum to stay with the UK under the knowledge of an impending EU referendum maybe on the cards and it was the case the SNP argued the UK may end up leaving the EU if the Tories stay in power and deliver the choice to hold a referendum, they used this possibility to try shore up support and still lost so in light of this, this means they were not been taken out of the EU against their will as that possibility was laid bare and they still chose to stay part of the UK, this also means they do not have a mandate to now have another referendum.
You have got to love politics and how it seems to suffer memory issues when it suits their own agenda.

father zed · Dec 21, 2019

The strange thing about Politics, people tend to think they know enough.
Sparking as a mirroring example - people coming into the Trade know that they
need to study to understand various aspects of Theory and Practice.
Yet, in Politics, the tendency is to think that 'we' know enough, and that
we're 'right'. Which makes the work of the Media infinitely easier.

This video from an NHS campaigner lists the Private Sector
firms already embedded in the NHS -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYJ42GLIjo

And a link to 'The Great NHS Heist'

Watch The Great NHS Heist Documentary Online | Vimeo On Demand

How a nation was robbed of its most treasured possession The British National Health Service is the nation’s proudest achievements, lifting burden from…

vimeo.com

I hope some have also watched Pilger's 'The Dirty War on the NHS'

If you want to contemplate what's so wrong with having the Private
Sector in Health - have a look at what happens in the USA - there's some
snippets on this in Pilger's film. It should open your eyes, hopefully.

There's a mass of info out there, if people have the curiosity to look at it.
If you do get into it, and become better informed about what's being done
to the NHS - keep in mind what you've learned, when watching what passes
for News in this country, when they run an NHS 'story'.

Why do I care, particularly? Well I care full stop. But as someone with
friends and family that work in the NHS, I've heard first hand about what's
been/being done, and the impact it has. It's VERY grim, and set to get worse.
Think on good people!
(Some recommended reading included)

Zerax · Dec 21, 2019

Wow Father Zed... a lot of reading and opinions to listen to and analyse there...

I have to admit that I don't have time to read and/or watch all the links that you have posted, but it all seems very wrong to me.

I can only speak as a user of the NHS... and I agree that it needs urgent change !! I have been lucky to have exactly the same procedure carried out by both an 'in-house' NHS department and as an 'out-sourced' NHS service. For me... and I'm not saying that this is always the case, but the out-sourced service was far superior to the in-house one. And as a 'patient' that's what I care about. As a tax payer, I want to see the most efficient use of my money (how you measure efficient is a topic in itself).

The problem with this whole 'they're making a profit out of us' argument is nonsense and idealogical. Let me give you an example;

If having procedure "A" costs the NHS £10 to do in-house... or the identical procedure "A" £9 to out-source... then I would expect the NHS to outsource it. The fact that the out-sourced partner is making 50p profit from this is irrelevant to most people, except ideologists.

I think that most people are agreed that the NHS needs urgent radical reform... but it's almost un-reformable due to its sheer vastness, the culture that has been allowed to be built up over the last 70+ years and the fact that every politician I hear always has to prefix the NHS with a superlative... like Our Amazing NHS, or Our Incredible NHS etc. The higher you raise that dais, the harder it is to criticise it !

There was a guy about 10 years ago who tried to reform his local hospital... I forget his name, but he was like one of those 'captains of industry' who'd been around for years and knew about management etc. He thought... I'll start with something small at first and take it from there... get an early easy win. His objective was to have the hospital use the operating theatres for 5 days a week rather than the current 4. After about 6 months of meetings, discussions, persuasions, gaining trust, workshops etc. he thought he'd finally cracked it !! The person in charge agreed that it was a good idea ! she said proudly... "Yes, OK we'll do it.... I'll put it forward to the next Theatre Operating Committee Meeting"

He dropped his head... in despair... and admitted defeat... the NHS is so stuck in its ways... forget change.

rapparee · Dec 21, 2019

darkwood said:
When we go into elections or vote on referendums it is exclusively done so that we have the loses consent, this is and was the case for the EU referendum and Scotland's independence vote.. or so we thought.
It seems that in light of the EU referendum result going against the expectations and will of the establishment and the mainstream media we have seen yrs and yrs of questionable funding pumped into groups and people who support EU/Remain positions, there has been hypocrisy and irony throughout, Trump makes a comment to back Boris up and all of a sudden there is uproar from the remainers that he is interfering in our politics yet they forget that Obama came out and said if we leave we are going to the back of the queue for a trade deal (strange comment to make when he knew he wouldn't actually be in office given the USA's impending election).
With regards the SNP, Oh! Where do I start, Scotland also voted in their own referendum to stay with the UK under the knowledge of an impending EU referendum maybe on the cards and it was the case the SNP argued the UK may end up leaving the EU if the Tories stay in power and deliver the choice to hold a referendum, they used this possibility to try shore up support and still lost so in light of this, this means they were not been taken out of the EU against their will as that possibility was laid bare and they still chose to stay part of the UK, this also means they do not have a mandate to now have another referendum.
You have got to love politics and how it seems to suffer memory issues when it suits their own agenda.

I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

Darkwood · Dec 21, 2019

rapparee said:
I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

I think you missed the whole point of my post this has no relative context to other EU nations, it was the fact the SNP used the fact they could be taken out of the EU as political weapon and still lost means they do not have a mandate... these are on record as Nichola S' own words, since she lost and things have backfired for her she now pretends the past promises don't mean anything.
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father zed said:
The strange thing about Politics, people tend to think they know enough.
Sparking as a mirroring example - people coming into the Trade know that they
need to study to understand various aspects of Theory and Practice.
Yet, in Politics, the tendency is to think that 'we' know enough, and that
we're 'right'. Which makes the work of the Media infinitely easier.

This video from an NHS campaigner lists the Private Sector
firms already embedded in the NHS -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYJ42GLIjo

And a link to 'The Great NHS Heist'

Watch The Great NHS Heist Documentary Online | Vimeo On Demand

How a nation was robbed of its most treasured possession The British National Health Service is the nation’s proudest achievements, lifting burden from…

vimeo.com

I hope some have also watched Pilger's 'The Dirty War on the NHS'

If you want to contemplate what's so wrong with having the Private
Sector in Health - have a look at what happens in the USA - there's some
snippets on this in Pilger's film. It should open your eyes, hopefully.

There's a mass of info out there, if people have the curiosity to look at it.
If you do get into it, and become better informed about what's being done
to the NHS - keep in mind what you've learned, when watching what passes
for News in this country, when they run an NHS 'story'.

Why do I care, particularly? Well I care full stop. But as someone with
friends and family that work in the NHS, I've heard first hand about what's
been/being done, and the impact it has. It's VERY grim, and set to get worse.
Think on good people!
(Some recommended reading included)

This is a review based on the American system and should not be confused with it, privatisation is not always a bad thing like it has been portrayed, having said that it isn't always a good thing but key to this is knowing the difference, labour has been extremely vocal about NHS privatisation as a political weapon but the public seems to ignore that it was labour that introduced privatisation into the NHS as the Tories didn't dare do it, it was also labour that introduced student fees and debt which they now try to throw back at the Tories saying they will get rid of them... it's fine listening to politics be it any party but unless you dig deep you are easily misled as of the 2xpoints I made which show gross hypocrisy.

Darkwood · Dec 23, 2019

rapparee said:
I disagree.

The whole rhetoric around the referendum at the time was that if Scotland chose to leave the UK, then the Spanish would not allow them to stay in the EU and they would have to exit and then apply as a new member. (The Spanish had an eye on their own Basque and Catalonian secessionist movements)

The English political class made great mileage out of this saying that it was better to be in the UK and the EU.

This was not the case, had the UK left with Scotland and Scotland wished to re-enter the EU it would have to do so through the same route as any other nation, the fact that Scotland's GDP did not meet the criteria was one main factors and also as stated by the head of the EU at the time, if they did in deed join they would have to align with the Euro, even if this were to happen today those same rules would still apply and Scotland does not yet meet the criteria to join.
However, as Scotland was part of a previous membership it was mentioned that exceptional circumstances may lead to a possible passage and even the Euro would not be initially implemented (I stress initially but it is in legislation that this would be a given at a later date) .. so how can Scotland actually leave the UK, keep the pound and join the EU, in short it cannot and it is one stumbling block that Sturgeon has been asked time and time again but fails to answer in detail while often claiming it isn't a problem, if they accept the failed Euro then we have to look at a hard border too and that's not even going into the fact the UK prop's up the Scottish economy as Scotland has a deficit 3 times that of the UK, Sturgeon fails to recognise the hand that feeds Scotland and has done for the last 20yrs, the oil fields that used to be used as a argument in that Scotland can self support are no longer are a viable point given the rise in price and the diminishing stocks, this and fact the UK made it clear it wouldn't pass the industry over either kind of diminished the argument for independence, I would really be interested how as a country who does more than 80% of its trade direct to the UK will fair by losing its generous funding, its currency and its reliance of smooth trade with its neighbour just because Scotland's largest party is run by a ideological nationalist who has been determined to break away from the UK since she was a teen, this is a fixation which one women has as oppose to what is actually in Scotland's best interests.

Does Sturgeon command a large support 'Yes' as it isn't hard to pit country against country if you expose all the con's but ignore the pro's and that is where we stand currently, Scotlands education has failed terribly under the SNP with them falling way down the world tables which is an uncomfortable truth they do not like reminding of, education is key to any countries future economic status so as is often said, they need to get their own house in order before pointing the finger at others.

baldelectrician · Dec 25, 2019

This was not the case, had the UK left with Scotland and Scotland wished to re-enter the EU it would have to do so through the same route as any other nation
The EU would either have Scotland in and have them as part of the EU including the CFP or Scotland would be out and French / Spanish fishermen could not fish in Scottish waters at which point these fishermen may have gone bust.

the fact that Scotland's GDP did not meet the criteria was one main factors and also as stated by the head of the EU at the time, if they did in deed join they would have to align with the Euro, even if this were to happen today those same rules would still apply and Scotland does not yet meet the criteria to join.

These criteria are for joining the Euro Zone- Scotland cannot be in the Euro Zone as it would require (amongst other things)

Have her own currency (not there until indy)
Agree to join the Euro (promise to join at later unspecified date)
Join the exchange rate mechanism (voluntary)

As point 3 above is entirely voluntary then joining the Euro is not mandatory.

so how can Scotland actually leave the UK?
By voting for independence

About keeping the pound
Canada, Australia, USA, New Zealand, Ireland and others used Sterling after gaining independence.
Scotland could do the same as Ireland (from 1979 to 2000) who used the Punt (which had parity with Sterling).
In any event it would be up to Scotland- remember if Scotland chose not to use Sterling the f(UK) - former UK - would not have the oil, gas, electricity, whisky and all other sales allocated to the Sterling zone, this would unbalance sterling

Sturgeon fails to recognise the hand that feeds Scotland and has done for the last 20yrs,
Really.
I am getting tired of this - GERS was developed to make Scotland look poor.

the oil fields that used to be used as a argument in that Scotland can self support are no longer are a viable point given the rise in price and the diminishing stock
Oil is past peak and we need to move away from it- Scotland has 30% of EUROPE'S renewable potential, maybe that's the reason the UK does not want us to leave

this and fact the UK made it clear it ~~wouldn't pass the industry over~~ would keep an asset located another country's territorial waters either kind of diminished the argument for independence

, I would really be interested how as a country who does more than 80% of its trade direct to the UK
Points
If the former UK (fUK) decides not to trade with a newly independent Scotland the lights in the other parts of the UK will go out (Scotland produces almost 2 x electricity it needs plus 5 x oil and gas)
Under the excellent management of Westminster the UK has went from about 15% spare capacity on the National Grid to less than 3%

will fair by losing its generous funding
You mean our taxes paid by us back

, its currency and its reliance of smooth trade with its neighbour
Once we are out of the UK we will be in the EU- look at the way Ireland (re backstop) has been treated by the EU compared to the way Westminster treats Scotland (sit down, shut up and know your place)
Scotland will have 27 others at our back when we negotiate the trade deal with the former UK

Scotlands education has failed terribly under the SNP
We have had to endure cuts by Westminster (some schools in England are on a 4.5 day week, they are doing fund raising for books, pencils etc)

Jim Rogers Bloomberg video

Mhairi Black on Gers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1208170230754795520

There is quite a lot of differing opinions
One thing should be noted:
2013- support for Independence about 30% (UK) - of course you can have a referendum

2019- Support for indy at 50% - now (never) is the time

Why would the UK force Scotland to stay if we are subsidy junkies- the Tories are not known for their benevolence?

Want to see how Scotland is thought in the EU, see link below from the European Parlaiment from Alyn Smyth

Baddegg · Dec 25, 2019

I won’t pretend to know to any great depth the arguments put back and forth here (I don’t want to really but I’ll admit they are good from both sides) but I can’t understand how leaving one United Kingdom and joining another can be termed as “independence”? I think you’d be hard pressed to find any member of the EU to deny that the ultimate end goal (albeit long term as it stands) is one state controlled from Brussels.....what does Scotland gain here?.......

baldelectrician · Dec 25, 2019

Baddegg said:
..what does Scotland gain here?.......

Scotland gains full control of her affairs ( including the option to leave the EU any time we wish - unlike the current situation)
We also enter a union in which we have a veto as well as a say.
Add to that a Scotland inside the EU will have 27 countries at our back as opposed to the current situation we have in the UK where we are ignored and treated lie an abusive partner treats their spouse.

DPG · Dec 25, 2019

Give them the vote and if they vote to leave then fair enough. I know quite a few Scots, and only one of them is in the leave category. And only that same one has any time for Miss Sturgeon.

I personally hope they stay part of the UK