Moving a light switch - is an rcd needed?

[Ft2300]

Hi, we've bought a house which has the light switches in the reception rooms behind the door - we don't want to rehang the doors to open the other way as the rooms are small and it obstructs furniture.

I've had a few quotes of £100-£200 to move the lights switch to a different wall but one electrician said if the house doesn't have an RCD then it will be more/ not as simple. The house is a 1920s semi and doesn't have an RCD so I've repeated this back to other contractors who have said it's not needed.

I'm not sure what to think and know nothing about electrics - they were saying something about chasing the cables but i don't know what this is. Can anyone help?

Thanks

 

[MJPD29]

If the cable is buried less than 50mm deep in wall without earthed mechanical protection, yes.

 

[loz2754]

Any new work on a lighting circuit which involves altering the wiring has to have RCD protection.

 

[loz2754]

Another option would be to use quinetic wireless switches, though not necessarily a cheaper option.

 

[telectrix]

Another option would be to use quinetic wireless switches, though not necessarily a cheaper option.

won't be all that bad if you knock off the cost of chasing, plastering, and re-decoration.

 

[Mikegh]

Could be problematic then when you fit the RCBO at the board

Faults and borrowed neutrals

 

[brianmoooore]

The possibility of finding out that your wiring is in an unsatisfactory/dangerous condition is hardly a valid reason for not fitting an RCD

 

[littlespark]

Are you absolutely sure it doesn't have an rcd? Just because the house is 1920's doesn't mean the wiring is... (It won't be!)

Can we have a photo of the consumer unit showing the circuit breakers. It might be an easy job to add an RCD or RCBO.

There are other smart type switches that could be used instead of Quinetic.


I had to do this myself in a previous house i'd owned where the living room door had been hung the other way. Switch behind the door. But i managed to push a new cable down the conduit buried in the wall that fed the hallway switch, which was back to back with the new switch position.
Really lucky as the piece of wallpaper i cut out to fit the new switch, matched perfectly to patch where the old switch was.



As far as regulations go, FYI, from page 59 of the BBB electricians Bible (big blue book, BS7671 Wiring Regulations, 18th edition)

411.3.4 Additional requirements for circuits with luminaires

Within domestic (household) premises, additional protection by an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA shall be provided for AC final circuits supplying luminaires

 

[Ft2300]

Are you absolutely sure it doesn't have an rcd? Just because the house is 1920's doesn't mean the wiring is... (It won't be!)

Can we have a photo of the consumer unit showing the circuit breakers. It might be an easy job to add an RCD or RCBO.

There are other smart type switches that could be used instead of Quinetic.


I had to do this myself in a previous house i'd owned where the living room door had been hung the other way. Switch behind the door. But i managed to push a new cable down the conduit buried in the wall that fed the hallway switch, which was back to back with the new switch position.
Really lucky as the piece of wallpaper i cut out to fit the new switch, matched perfectly to patch where the old switch was.



As far as regulations go, FYI, from page 59 of the BBB electricians Bible (big blue book, BS7671 Wiring Regulations, 18th edition)

411.3.4 Additional requirements for circuits with luminaires

Within domestic (household) premises, additional protection by an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA shall be provided for AC final circuits supplying luminaires

Hiya, here is a photo of the consumer unit - to my knowledge there's no rcd. Sorry for the angle - will get a better one in the morning.

 

[littlespark]

Nope... no RCD.

Museum piece, not quite 1920's.

90's circuit breakers retrofitted into a 70's board. (someone will correct my dates if im wrong)

 

[Ft2300]

The possibility of finding out that your wiring is in an unsatisfactory/dangerous condition is hardly a valid reason for not fitting an RCD

Hi, thanks - I'm open to putting one in if needed, just want to actually understand if it's needed for the moving the light switches or not (something we could save up to do in the future). Can anyone give a ballpark of how much it would cost to put in an RCD? thanks

 

[Ft2300]

Nope... no RCD.

Museum piece, not quite 1920's.

90's circuit breakers retrofitted into a 70's board. (someone will correct my dates if im wrong)

Thanks for confirming - would be helpful to know if i should be worried about this (on the house we've just bought!!) - is it something that needs to be replaced/ upgraded asap? Many thanks

 

[littlespark]

Doesn't need to be upgraded as it is, but obviously any new works, including alterations to an existing circuit such as moving a switch, would have to be done to the current edition of the regulations... which would mean adding an RCD to it somehow.

It might be an idea to have an EICR done on the property. That way, any faults that are or may become dangerous will be found.

 

[brianmoooore]

Shower on a 16? Immersion heater on a 32? Two electric showers (both without RCD, unless at shower end)?
I would make getting a EICR on your house a priority.

 

[littlespark]

The "shower on a 16" looks to have been repurposed as underfloor heating... which looks to be passing through the RCD spur in the bottom right of picture.

and the 32A for immersion is turned off. Still needs investigated though.

Installations of this age will have had some alterations no doubt over the years. I cant see there being enough sockets in each room, if still original.

 

[Ft2300]

Shower on a 16? Immersion heater on a 32? Two electric showers (both without RCD, unless at shower end)?
I would make getting a EICR on your house a priority.

Sorry, I'm not sure what these numbers etc mean. Does this mean i need to pull out the showers/ bathrooms and rewire?!?

So am i right to think that in order to move the switch, and as a general priority it is:

1st - get an eirc
2nd - replace/ put in the rcd
3rd - then can move the light switch

If anyone could provide ballpark figures for the 1st and 2nd that would be really helpful, thank you.

 

[littlespark]

Sorry, I'm not sure what these numbers etc mean. Does this mean i need to pull out the showers/ bathrooms and rewire?!?

Don't worry about that. As i say, i think a shower circuit has been used to supply underfloor heating, and as such, the 16A breaker will be fine.

So am i right to think that in order to move the switch, and as a general priority it is:

1st - get an eirc
2nd - replace/ put in the rcd
3rd - then can move the light switch

If anyone could provide ballpark figures for the 1st and 2nd that would be really helpful, thank you.

An EICR would be a few hundred £ depending on the size of the property. Its an Electrical Installation Condition Report, and it will categorize each circuit into either a C1 (immediate danger) C2 (potentially dangerous) or C3 (improvement recommended). Otherwise, its brand new, and there's no issue.
There's also FI. (further investigation) which is where there is an issue, but to properly code it would involve extra time and money.

To change the entire consumer unit to all RCBO (which is a circuit breaker and RCD combined for each circuit) would be high hundreds of £'s, but the job of changing the CU would include a "mini" EICR to make sure there was no underlying faults before proceeding which may not allow the RCD's to operate properly.
There would also be an SPD (surge protection device) incorporated into the CU to protect costly electronic devices from voltage spikes. These can actually vary in price depending on likelyhood of lightning strikes, or whether you have an overhead cable supplying the property. This is something that you, as the customer, can opt out of having.

 

[brianmoooore]

Don't make the all to common mistake of spending thousands on new kitchens, bathrooms, flooring and general decor - the things that people tend to do when moving into a new property, before having the electrics evaluated. The fusebox and the wiring that we can see are all pretty ancient, and either the property will have very minimalistic electrics by modern standards, or loads of alterations and additions, which may or may not be done to an adequate standard.
You don't want to be rewiring and pulling up newly installed flooring or damaging newly decorated walls.

 

[Avo Mk8]

Hi Ft2300
To put your original enquiry into perspective -
Assuming the light switch you want to move is single gang, the cost of a Quinetic receiver switch (to put in place of the existing, as originally suggested in this thread), and a wireless switch to operate it (to put on the other side of the door, no wiring required) is approx £68 inc vat and shipping. No running of cables, just a like for like replacement of the existing switch with a Quinetic one. If you have multiple switches, still possible, but proportionally more expensive.

(This would mean you have switches on both sides of the door. If this is aesthetically unacceptable, please ignore this)

If you know someone competent to swap a light switch, or are competent to do it yourself, this is a route to do what you originally ask, without invoking the doom fairy.
In my humble opinion, doing this (properly) will not make your installation any less safe than it is already. It does not require RCD's. It does not require channeling the plaster and re-instating the decor. It does not require a registered electrician, as manufacturers of such accessories sell their products to the general public with instructions specifically written with the end user in mind.

I'm sure you appreciate, and will take heed of, all the good advice that has been prompted by your posting, but if unable to implement this immediately, I'm just suggesting this technology as a possible solution, and I've found it useful ?

PS I have absolutely no commercial or personal interest in this product, just use it at home!

 

[MJPD29]

If you are moving a light switch and altering the circuit, an RCD is almost certainly required. Its not something something can be done in the future, it's something that has to be done when the lighting circuit is being altered. It's as simple as that.

 

[Lister1987]

The "shower on a 16" looks to have been repurposed as underfloor heating... which looks to be passing through the RCD spur in the bottom right of picture.

and the 32A for immersion is turned off. Still needs investigated though.

Installations of this age will have had some alterations no doubt over the years. I cant see there being enough sockets in each room, if still original.

I wouldn't count of the BS7288 providing the level of (additional) protection required. Disconnection time may be achieved but the device itself does not mean the required standard for a 'standard' RCD.

 

[DefyG]

FT2300, If you've recently bought the property and plan on alterations, I would really consider budgeting for upgrading the consumer unit (Following an EICR), even if just moving light switch at this time, to provide the latest RCD protection (and perhaps AFDD/SPD protection too) to all circuits that require it under the latest regulations.
It will at least give you and your family peace of mind that all is well on the electrical front.

 

[Ft2300]

Thanks all. We will get an EICR done - we've had an electrician in who said it would likely come back with C1 and C2 faults - am I right to think this would require a full house re-wire?
Then where do we stand, does this have to be fixed within a certain timeframe (it is a domestic mortgage-owned property)? Does it deem the house unliveable? Does it void the insurance, or the ability to sell on the property? Is it listed against the property somewhere publicly and required to fix asap? We obviously want to get it fixed asap, just need to work out costs/timeframes and how quickly we can save to fix. Thanks for the help.

 

[littlespark]

I wouldn't count of the BS7288 providing the level of (additional) protection required. Disconnection time may be achieved but the device itself does not mean the required standard for a 'standard' RCD.

Totally agree, but it would have been permissible at the time the underfloor hearing was installed, (or maybe not, if it was a DIY job done just recently)

 

[Avo Mk8]

does this have to be fixed within a certain timeframe (it is a domestic mortgage-owned property)?

Those more knowledgeable please say if I'm not accurate ?
By the way, regarding rewire, that's not necessarily needed. Would need further investigation. I suspect the electrician wasn't meaning to imply that, but we don't know.

Effectively Immediately for C1 category issues, and plan for implementing C2 fixes asap (see insurance issue below)

Does it deem the house unliveable?

No. I don't think any electrical issue could legally make you vacate the property. In extremis you might be advised to do so and choose to leave if there was a dangerous situation.

Does it void the insurance, or the ability to sell on the property?

It may affect the insurance, I guess they would not pay out if there was a fire from an electrical cause (my insurers demand a current clear EICR). If you were to sell, buyers solicitor would ask for a copy of EICR, if it contained issues it could be used as a bargaining tool by the purchaser (or put them off altogether). If you didn't want to provide it, likewise.

Is it listed against the property somewhere publicly

"Publicly" -Not that I'm aware of. Accessible by competent persons bodies and electrician(s)

and required to fix asap?

C1 immediate, C2 asap, C3 advisory

We obviously want to get it fixed asap, just need to work out costs/timeframes and how quickly we can save to fix. Thanks for the help.

I would suggest you try to have say a £2k pot put aside??

 

[Lister1987]

Totally agree, but it would have been permissible at the time the underfloor hearing was installed, (or maybe not, if it was a DIY job done just recently)

7288 RCD FCUs, iirc have never been suitable for thr purpose of Additional protection. While I submit that they were written in previous editions of the regs as acceptable, our understanding of thier function, mode of operation and how they afford protection has evolved so now they're not accepted for that purpose.

To use the argument of 'previous editions said it was ok so it can stay' is a poor one based on what we now know and understand. I'll never understand those (not implying you @littlespark ) that don't push for installations to meet recent (if not the latest) regs is beyond me. It's like saying "I'm fine with candles, I've been safe with them for years" even though we have electricity, it's barmy.

I admit situations and circumstances tend to dictate the overall outcome but we really should be educating customers as to the benefits of the latest protection methods (AFDDs notwithstanding), especially when they've been around for decades.

 

[telectrix]

Thanks all. We will get an EICR done - we've had an electrician in who said it would likely come back with C1 and C2 faults - am I right to think this would require a full house re-wire?
Then where do we stand, does this have to be fixed within a certain timeframe (it is a domestic mortgage-owned property)? Does it deem the house unliveable? Does it void the insurance, or the ability to sell on the property? Is it listed against the property somewhere publicly and required to fix asap? We obviously want to get it fixed asap, just need to work out costs/timeframes and how quickly we can save to fix. Thanks for the help.

only a thorough inspection will tell you what is needeed. maybe a new Consumer Unit with partial rewire with some extra sockets, downlights, etc., don't worry about insurance etc., as long as it's brought up to current standards, with a EIC to back up the works and notification to LABC,

 

[brianmoooore]

I'll never understand those (not implying you @littlespark ) that don't push for installations to meet recent (if not the latest) regs is beyond me. It's like saying "I'm fine with candles, I've been safe with them for years" even though we have electricity, it's barmy.

I admit situations and circumstances tend to dictate the overall outcome but we really should be educating customers as to the benefits of the latest protection methods (AFDDs notwithstanding), especially when they've been around for decades.

Pushing for installations to meet recent or latest regs by explaining the benefits and advantages to them is one thing, and something I have always enthusiastically done
. Coding deviations as C2 rather than the C3 they should be to force a customer's hand is quite another.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

7288 RCD FCUs, iirc have never been suitable for thr purpose of Additional protection. While I submit that they were written in previous editions of the regs as acceptable, our understanding of thier function, mode of operation and how they afford protection has evolved so now they're not accepted for that purpose.

Regarding the use of BS7288 RCD FCUs, and their omission from the current wiring regs. I have looked into this, searched for answers online, discussed it on the forum, and even emailed manufacturers on the subject. No one has been able to confidently tell me why they aren't suitable as additional protection (bar that they can't be installed at the absolute origin of the final circuit, but this seems like nit-picking to me,as they can be installed very close to it).

From your post, it sounds like you know the answer, and I would be grateful if you would share it?

 

[Lister1987]

Regarding the use of BS7288 RCD FCUs, and their omission from the current wiring regs. I have looked into this, searched for answers online, discussed it on the forum, and even emailed manufacturers on the subject. No one has been able to confidently tell me why they aren't suitable as additional protection (bar that they can't be installed at the absolute origin of the final circuit, but this seems like nit-picking to me,as they can be installed very close to it).

From your post, it sounds like you know the answer, and I would be grateful if you would share it?from

Regarding the use of BS7288 RCD FCUs, and their omission from the current wiring regs. I have looked into this, searched for answers online, discussed it on the forum, and even emailed manufacturers on the subject. No one has been able to confidently tell me why they aren't suitable as additional protection (bar that they can't be installed at the absolute origin of the final circuit, but this seems like nit-picking to me,as they can be installed very close to it).

From your post, it sounds like you know the answer, and I would be grateful if you would share it?

From what I can recall the crux of it is down to internal clearances inside the devices themselves; 61008 and 61009 offering larger clearances than 7288 devices.

I'll see if I can find out the papers

 

[littlespark]

This is a thread about moving a switch and the need for adding an RCD.

We don’t need another discussion about whether BS7288’s are suitable.

 

[7029 dave]

Blimey fitted quite a few of them old 12way wylex CU's DP main switch in the middle.

Is it really that long ago ?

 

[DefyG]

This is a thread about moving a switch and the need for adding an RCD.

Yeah nothing as straightforward as moving a light switch!?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

From what I can recall the crux of it is down to internal clearances inside the devices themselves; 61008 and 61009 offering larger clearances than 7288 devices.

I'll see if I can find out the papers

Thanks. Where did you find this out BTW? Doesn't seem to be common knowledge

 

[Pretty Mouth]

This is a thread about moving a switch and the need for adding an RCD.

We don’t need another discussion about whether BS7288’s are suitable.

Indeed, but as that was answered many posts ago, and we all still seem to be here, we might as well

 

[telectrix]

33 posts on moving a switch and we wonder why the country is fooked.