NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC’s Connection magazine (using CPC as a live conductor)?

[chilliwilly]

again....sheathing is not classed as insulation....its there to provide a degree of mechanical protection to the insulated cores underneath!!! WELL I NEVER!!! Mind you the trouble is though, by default it insulates the bare cpc ? Even though not designed for that purpose, as WE ALL KNOW.But does offer a degree of protection against corrosion?

further more you still have not explained why the CPC is not insulated on flat twin....have you... But if it was insulated, it could be used as a 3 core like the flex in this thread?

But as it isn't insulated, and doesn't require insulation as it isn't a live conductor, it can't be used as a live conductor can it?

That reminds me, I'm going to send my fluke multi tester back, there must be something wrong with it, everytime I try to measure volts to earth between live and the pvc sheath of a twin and earth, it displays 0 volts?

But when I measure between the cpc terminal with the cpc of the same cable, it measures a voltage?

Come to think of it, measures a voltage between live and anything with an earth potential? But not on PVC or any other material used for insulating electrical conductors?

I'm going to send it back, I can't believe I paid all that money for it and it has an intermittent fault? Come to think of it, they all have the same fault, every meter and tester I've had has had the same fault for nearly 40 years? I can't understand it?

In fact, the same thing happens when I test for voltage between live and the pvc sheath of an armoured, an FP, a flex, a porcelain pillar, a porcelain sink and bath, a pvc matt on a chacker plate gantry, an insulated enclosure, plastic conduit and trunking, and some other thingys, oh I nearly forgot... and the air?

And I think that's it without taxing my brain.

Maybe you know what could be wrong with my meters?[/QUOTE]



not what you stated at #2

clearly you didn`t...otherwise you would not have made the statement at #2 that you did. I said and I quote..."But certainly not a cpc within a twin and earth cable, as it would only be single insulated and carrying a voltage over 50 volts and not satisfying basic protection". Just in case you didn't understand the anecdote which is swinging toward being an ironic comment.I was refering that if the cpc was used as a live conductor, it would be equivilent to single insulated, if you don't agree with that fact, then please explain why you wouldn't be making contact with a live part if you touched the sheath?

again not what you stated at #2....you implied the sheath was classed as insulation....which it isn`t...regardless of any insulating qualities it may have.....
so dont blame the tools...

i havn`t once blamed your test gear.... I never said you did, I asked you if you knew what was wrong with them, as I couldn't get a reading when testing between live and the sheath covered cpc, and you haven't answered the question?

and you still havn`t answered the (very relevent question) i posed to you at #22 & #27 which was why does the CPC on a flat cable not have any insulation along any of its length?
nearly 40 years in the game....you should know then.....
i suspect you dont....
answer today please

Its so that cheese makers can rub the cheese against the cpc and make gorgonzola and stilton, its been proved its a much more energy efficient and environmently friendly way of making it. Infact they're getting an increase in their rebate from the carbon trust.

And when the circuits are run at low level, it also helps to stop losses arising from slugs and the like from squirming further up the wall and onto the shelves and eating the cheese.

The trouble is though, there could be a departure from reg 514.4.2 paragraph 3, but hey what's a departure in the case of such beautiful flavoured cheese? At least there won't be any slug trails on it.

Hope this answers your question?

And I hope I answered it in the time limit you asked for?

Cheers.

Thanks for coming.

 

[stuartcourt]

WOW that was trippy

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well...i have to say..you really have put a smile on my face there chilli....
the answer your looking for is that the CPC is not insulated so it will intercept any fault (the reason it runs between the live conductors) before any fault has a chance of going down any penetrations (screws, nails & the like)...which could be the case if it was insulated...

 

[stuartcourt]

nothing to do with cheese then, (no course not)

 

[chilliwilly]

What if the penetration was at the side and through a live core, or even between 2 of the cores used as live of a 3 core and earth?

That is the whole point of of reg 522.6.6.

I hope that reason for not insulating the cpc is only relevent for the cheese factory.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What if the penetration was at the side and through a live core, or even between 2 of the cores used as live of a 3 core and earth?

That is the whole point of of reg 522.6.6.

I hope that reason for not insulating the cpc is only relevent for the cheese factory.

yep...and thats the chance you take....but the explanation i gave you for the CPC not being insulated was correct....
i dont do fiction...

 

[chilliwilly]

God help us, or at least the folks who you have wired up.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

God help us, or at least the folks who you have wired up.

lol....
now, i distinctly remember a thread you put up ...when you first showed up in here...
there you were goin on about putting lighting and power on one circuit...with no mention of fusing down for the lighting portion...
dont you dare deny it....you said it...
oh and by the way....i know what i`m doing fella when it comes to the things i`v `wired up`....lol...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

remember the rods one you came out with as well....
`oh just stick a rod in the ground...see what happens`...lol...had to pull you up over that as well....and not just me...but Mr. earthing and bonding himself had something to say over it.....lolffs....lol...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

God help us, or at least the folks who you have wired up.

i also think that you know underneath i am aware of disconnection times..so stop being silly now...

 

[PEG]

That was fiesty! the last time folk battled that hard over the earth,rubber boats were bouncing off Japanese whalers...:45:

 

[bigbaddave]

Ahh man... have i missed the crack

 

[chilliwilly]

GLENNSPARK.

And I will carry on wiring radials in hopscotch fashion serving more than one floor and one room, and when the rating of lighting accessories is improved to match the rating of power outlets, I will also include wall lights and maybe even centre lights on the same circuit. So there still will be lights and power in the event of a fault on one floor and in one room. And watch this space, this will become the norm across Europe including the UK.

I will carry on using one or more earth spikes to obtain a ze reading or as a permanent method of providing a TT installation in the absence of a main earth. No matter what the type of supply, and what the other bloke says.

I'm glad that you remembered (but then again how could someone like you forget?), but you will also remember that I didn't and won't stand corrected about my methods by you or anyone else who dare not leave their comfort zone of limited experience.

Only if and when my customers, the consultants that I work with, and the niccy ever have any issues with my methods, only then will I stand corrected. After all why should I stand corrected to the likes of you? They are the ones who use my services and have done for a few years, and are coming back to using them since starting up again.

And don't worry, in the unlikely event of any of my customers ever having the misfortune of phoning you, especially domestic ones, there will be as fitted drawings present along with the circuit schedule. So you won't look too stupid not knowing how to extend a radial circuit that covers both floors and including bedrooms. But then again summing you up, you would probably walk away and tell them it needs a rewire because it doesn't have ring mains, and has one or more earth spike because there is a TN supply with no main earth because the area board/DNO won't come and connect one.

But you can always tell them that the cpc in the twin and earths within the fabric of the building and elsewhere, mean that they can drive a nail into them and still be safe no matter how its wired. As safe as the MPs daughter who allegedly were killed from driving a nail through a cable and we all know the rest.

EDIT: Another outburst like that will get your account removed.

 

[Darkwood]

Now now boys play nice or you won't be able to stay out late .

Chilly to note suggested language as such will see you banned its a public forum for all ages and experiences and just because your having anger management issues doesn't mean you have to show them on here.. there is more than one way to make your point that don't flout the rules of the forum.

We all have different working methods but follow the same set of rules although some specifics of the regs can be interpreted different ways.

A few pointers here ....the outer sheath of T7E provides environmental protection and shouldn't be implied that its their for insulation or for mechanical protection ...it is there for environmental protection of which affords it a level of mechanical protection and insulation amongst other things like UV, chemical and oil resistance but as the amount of this protection goes it could be a very low level hence its misleading to say its their for that particular strength.

Also the earth in a T & E is bare IMHO to increase the chances of a fault occurring if the outer sheath and inner insulation is breached... Water ingress is then more likely to create a fault, overheating of the cable is more likely to short out before a fire situe' as the insulation perishes it is adjacent to a bare earth, and also the most widely used domestic wire it brings down costs as their is no real need to insulate it at extra cost when you opposition undercut you on price and leave it un-insulated. Yes it can be breached/damaged without faulting and creating a potentially dangerous situe but the regs are in place to keep such issues to a minimum they cant be totally irradicated
but the chances of it occurring can.

 

[stuartcourt]

Time to close this thread I believe nothing constructive here

 

[telectrix]

there is a simpler explanation as to why the cpc in T/E is not insulated. the cable is first constucted as twin, with a small aperture down the middle for the lenght of the cable, usually 100m. now, if the cpc was insulated, how in hell could the manufacturers push it all in?

 

[Badged01]

Simple Tel, just make the hole bigger!

 

[BigSi]

I just popped back after a few busy days at work to see how my thread was doing........errrrr, I’ll get my coat!!!

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I just popped back after a few busy days at work to see how my thread was doing........errrrr, I’ll get my coat!!!

Thats funny!

 

[Spudnik]

Well, just to add to the debate, i was taught to never use the cpc (in flex) as a live conductor, which i am most happy with.

As for the CPC in twin and earth, i understand the reasons for it being un sheathed, is that its not a current carrying conductor, plus the cost of manufacture.

And i also seem to remember that any cable should have an earth conductor present, and connected, but obviously not to DI accessories.

 

[chopper76]

NICEIC’s Connection magazine (using CPC as a live conductor)?

You can buy t/e flat cable with the cpc sheathed, just not common place

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well, just to add to the debate, i was taught to never use the cpc (in flex) as a live conductor, which i am most happy with.

As for the CPC in twin and earth, i understand the reasons for it being un sheathed, is that its not a current carrying conductor, plus the cost of manufacture.

And i also seem to remember that any cable should have an earth conductor present, and connected, but obviously not to DI accessories.

no....think 2 core flex
fixed wiring systems to have a CPC available at every point on the installation

 

[Knobhead]

So what set off as a sensible thread about something that is inherently dangerous has degenerated in to personal slanging matches.

The ECA should be lined up and shot for publishing the article in the first place. It will convince the fly by nights it’s safe to use the CPC of T&E as a live conductor.
Is this is the way things are going within the trade? Dangerous short cuts legitimised by an organisation that should be upholding standards.

But there’s no profit in (safe) standards, so what the hell.

Just think on when you get a belt off the earth in a two way switch.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So what set off as a sensible thread about something that is inherently dangerous has degenerated in to personal slanging matches.

The ECA should be lined up and shot for publishing the article in the first place. It will convince the fly by nights it’s safe to use the CPC of T&E as a live conductor.
Is this is the way things are going within the trade? Dangerous short cuts legitimised by an organisation that should be upholding standards.

But there’s no profit in (safe) standards, so what the hell.

Just think on when you get a belt off the earth in a two way switch.

come on tony...it would be connected L1/L2.....wouldn`t it

- - - Updated - - -

and oversleaved (identification of conductors) at all terminations

i can send you the article if you want....

 

[Knobhead]

Glenn, I've seen it. Don’t even try to convince me it’s a good or even acceptable practice.

As I said, it will get misinterpreted by the fly by nights as perfectly acceptable to use the CPC of T&E as a live condutor.

The article should never have been published. It will now be taken as gospel.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Glenn, I've seen it. Don’t even try to convince me it’s a good or even acceptable practice.

As I said, it will get misinterpreted by the fly by nights as perfectly acceptable to use the CPC of T&E as a live condutor.

The article should never have been published. It will now be taken as gospel.

i would never condone this....but if they cant see the difference between a bit of flex...and a flat twin....then theres something wrong...
the correct cable with enough cores should be selected anyway....

 

[Knobhead]

I’m not asking you to condone it.
There’s something very wrong with this industry.

Scams sanctioning poorly qualified people to trade as an electrician is the main one.
Then the Gurus (scams) of the industry actively encouraging poor practice is another. (This farce).

Should I continue the list?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I’m not asking you to condone it.
There’s something very wrong with this industry.

Scams sanctioning poorly qualified people to trade as an electrician is the main one.
Then the Gurus (scams) of the industry actively encouraging poor practice is another. (This farce).

Should I continue the list?

whats wrong here tony is the fundemental lack of understanding about even the basics by many going round claiming their an electrician:

The complete disregard of safety (for themselves and others)....

the pernicious `schemes` that accept any old guy for £££ just off the cuff....

the persistace of these `be an electrician in 5 weeks` outshoppers....

training centres selling `bolt on courses` to those that are not ready for £££....

johnny turk setting his stall out here (with state sanctioned encouragement)....

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by chilliwilly And I will carry on wiring radials in hopscotch fashion serving more than one floor and one room, and when the rating of lighting accessories is improved to match the rating of power outlets, I will also include wall lights and maybe even centre lights on the same circuit. So there still will be lights and power in the event of a fault on one floor and in one room. And watch this space, this will become the norm across Europe including the UK.

Must have been totally Brainwashed from the time he spent in the States!! God help us all, if he is even remotely right!! lol!!

 

[Outspoken]

I was always taught that you never ever use the cpc as a live conductor, if you require a second live conductor you simply replace the cable with 4 cores...we are not talking about huge costs here, most fans only have about 30cm of cable attached at best and if replacing this busts your profits or is too hard for you then you should have your brain removed completely and become a plumber.

ECA = Electrical Conmen Association

NICEIC = Do it our way because we are gods you little oiks..but the rules don't apply to us.

JIB = Owned jointly by the above so needs no explanation

JTL = most useless people to ever attempt to train a prospective sparky

I would accept that my opinion will carry little weight as I have only been doing the job for 30 years come September!

Jim