The daftest change or addition in the 18th edition

[Risteard]

within the BS EN 61439 series.

I believe BS EN 61439-3 is specifically mentioned.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Thanks - just had a read of it ... Just thinking of a hypothetical job to add lights. Existing board has no RCD for light circuits, like to add RCD but can't because no OE available, so now need a CU change ... "but I just want to change my kitchen pendant to 4 downlights" says owner.

With lights though you could surely run the whole light circuit - being it would normally be a 6 amp mcb through a fuse rcd spur with a 5 amp fuse in it? unlikely to exceed 5 amp on most modern light circuits. Could mount it on wall next to consumer unit. just dont forget your nice new 18th edition testing sticker that has to some how fit on the said rcd spur.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

536.4.203 Integration of devices and components
The relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series shall be applied to the integration of mechanical and electrical devices and components, e.g. circuit-breakers, control devices, busbars into an empty enclosure or existing low voltage assembly.
In low voltage assemblies to the BS EN 61439 series, e.g. consumer units, distribution boards, incorporated devices and components shall only be those declared suitable according to the assembly manufacturer’s instructions or literature.
NOTE 1: The use of individual components complying with their respective product standard(s) does not indicate their compatibility when installed with other components in a low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly.
NOTE 2: Incorporated components inside the assembly can be from different manufacturers. It is essential that all incorporated components should have had their compatibility for the final enclosed arrangements verified by the original manufacturer of the assembly and be assembled in accordance with their instructions e.g. the consumer unit, distribution board manufacturer. The original manufacturer is the organization that carried out the original design and the associated verification of the low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly to the relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series.
If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations.

 

[telectrix]

agree spin, but does note 2 mean that you can fit a different make of device as long as the OM has OK'd it's use in their CU/DB?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

agree spin, but does note 2 mean that you can fit a different make of device as long as the OM has OK'd it's use in their CU/DB?

Yes.

 

[westward10]

Corresponding obligations is what in reference to the original manufacturer.

 

[Wilko]

agree spin, but does note 2 mean that you can fit a different make of device as long as the OM has OK'd it's use in their CU/DB?

FWIW that's how I read it too. I just think it might be unlikely, as I take it the OM would be responsible and the new company makes the sale.

 

[netblindpaul]

From what I understand, the new prohibition applies to all DBs and similar switch gear within the BS EN 61439 series.
Installing a component which was not included in with the type testing would make the installer the manufacturer and thus responsible for ensuring conformity with the standard.

This is correct and has been in the LAW of the land for many years, but electricians seem to believe that they are above compliance with the law of the land in which they live and work.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Going to have to consider this quite carefully, may change my opinion from time to time.

Since AMD3, BS7671 has required us to install BS EN 61439-3 compliant CUs in domestic installations.
Altering such a CU in any way other than as per the manufacturer’s instructions would mean the CU no longer complies with BS EN 61439-3.

We have always been able to depart from the requirements of BS7671, as long as the departure provides the same degree of safety as would be afforded by compliance.

There is also a requirement that whatever equipment we do install should meet whichever British Standards are applicable, though we can install equipment which complies with another applicable standard and we are also allowed to install equipment which doesn’t comply with any applicable standard, again as long as the same degree of safety is provided as would be afforded by compliance.

It has been a requirement for some time now, that the designer attest any departure provides the same degree of safety as would be afforded by compliance.

The problem with this new requirement is it appears to be going a little further.
It no longer requires us to simply attest on the certification that the departure provides the same degree of safety as would be afforded by compliance.
It appears to now require us to attest that any altered CU/DB still complies with the applicable BS EN 61439 series standard.

 

[sparksburnout]

the one i think customers will not like is the requirement for notices for all rcd's even ones not at the board, as i understand it a rcd spur will now need a sticker telling them to test etc... either the writing will be so small it cant be read or you put a picture frame on the wall next to it? as soon as you are out the door they will remove it in any case.
I would be surprised if more than 2% of people ever actually test the rcds as per the notices.

2% you reckon it's that high? For me this stupid change just shows how out of touch the people who dream up these things are, that they actually think that ANYONE tests their RCD's. Come on lets be honest, how many of you lot test yours regularly??

 

[Wilko]

I've never met anyone who uses the RCD test button as per the sticker. I have a little safety chat with folks before leaving and I'm pretty sure no one I've spoken to has ever pressed the test button.

 

[rapparee]

From what I understand, the new prohibition applies to all DBs and similar switch gear within the BS EN 61439 series.
Installing a component which was not included in with the type testing would make the installer the manufacturer and thus responsible for ensuring conformity with the standard.

But a control panel with a variable speed drive, contactors etc is not a distribution board. It is not covered by BS7671.

BS7671 only applies to the power supply up to the control panel.

 

[sparksburnout]

I've never met anyone who uses the RCD test button as per the sticker. I have a little safety chat with folks before leaving and I'm pretty sure no one I've spoken to has ever pressed the test button.

You would get more people pushing it if you changed the label to read "Under no circumstances attempt to push the Test button on the RCD"

 

[sparksfly]

1) Pick and mix protective devices - So I have no OEM instructions, they don't make this particular device anymore....power outage, work has stopped...mmmm...try one of these...Ah...it fits perfect...test...power on...I certify & sign that I take full responsibility for my actions....nothings changed really.
2) IR Test voltage column on SOTR - if its not at 500v I put it in remarks or note it anyway.

I like the sky blue colour - when you hold it up to the sky in this nice weather ....it just blends in....disappears...wow.. thats magical.

 

[CACJL]

pretty much as the title says ....

For me it’s a txss up between the regulation about no mixing makes or mcbs or rcbos - but what if they are identical except for the name or logo

Eg lewden and control gear

AND

the design limit of 30% earth leakage on circuits with rcbo or rcds - how can this be tested / checked and what happens when people move in a new build and plug in all sorts or carp accessories

Next!

There is one or two jobs worth at the IEE. I suspect many brands of MCBs and RCDs come of the same production line, it's known as badge engineering.

 

[stephanjs]

pretty much as the title says ....

For me it’s a txss up between the regulation about no mixing makes or mcbs or rcbos - but what if they are identical except for the name or logo

Eg lewden and control gear

AND

the design limit of 30% earth leakage on circuits with rcbo or rcds - how can this be tested / checked and what happens when people move in a new build and plug in all sorts or carp accessories

Next!

Yes. Respectively, it is impossible to create a set of standards that everyone is happy with and have no errors. On the same principal, we have courts and Judges to decide on points of law. Often, with hindsight, they can get decisions wrong.

Please let me respond to 2 of your points.

Mixed protective devices in consumer units.

A BS60898 will provide a given level of protection for a given set of electrical parameters. That said, there is no requirement for them to be of a particular size of even how they are connected into the circuit.

Universally we use din rails mainly to mount our mcbs in consumer units and distribution boards. The height or distance from the base of the din rail to the terminals on the db are different on different boards. Mixing different connecting heights on a bus bar will put mechanical strain on the bar, terminals and can eventually cause bad connections due to the expansion and contraction of the bar due to changes in temperature. Result - Fire.

A competent electrician will be able to identify where the only difference in mcb is the lable or badge. This will be noted and is fully in line with the regulations.

This regulation will hopefully stop bodgers from sticking/forcing any random breaker into consumer units.

Limiting of earth leakage to 30% downstream of a RCD (531.3.2).

I am assuming that you are referring to the above regulation. Please note that though it is a regulation, it is a consideration.

In a computer suite which has 30 2 gang switch socket outlets across 3 ring final circuits. the leakage to earth on a 10 point rfc will be around 15mA. Maybe, as much as 20mA. Without advertising manufacturers instruments, there are many instruments that can measure the leakage without breaking into the circuit. Computers, monitors and fluorescent lights can leak as much as 1mA to earth by nature.

A competent electrician/designer will take this into account when designing the circuit and will require the installer or inspector to carry out some sort of tests to confirm that the design has been followed and is correct.

As humans, we tent to look for faults before looking for the good. As my grandma used to say, "bad news travels faster than good news".

Did you know that the IET are a "not for profit charity"? If you visit a law library you will note that the cost of books of a similar size and complexity are significantly much more.

That aside, there are lots of formatting errors. There are lots of errors that have been in the regs for many years too. Personally, it is a bit unprofessional to produce a document that has so many simple formatting errors and spelling mistakes.

Finally, the CG2382 has been an easy exam to teach. I have taught 1000s of persons, many were not even electricians. I think I had 5 people who failed in total. As the questions are now random, it will be harder to pass.

I am going back to the drawing board to produce an new teaching tool for the future.

 

[davesparks]

This regulation will hopefully stop bodgers from sticking/forcing any random breaker into consumer units.

This is unlikely, bodgers rarely take notice of the regulations and often pay more attention to out of date regulations, Chinese whispers and everyone’s favourite ‘my mate down the pub said’

 

[sparksburnout]

Does it really need a competent electrician to be able to tell if a particular MCB will physically fit onto a DIN rail populated with --- other type(s)?? As for stipulating that they all have to be of the same make/brand/manufacturer, I am sorry that is just b$$locks.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Does it really need a competent electrician to be able to tell if a particular MCB will physically fit onto a DIN rail populated with --- other type(s)?? As for stipulating that they all have to be of the same make/brand/manufacturer, I am sorry that is just b$$locks.

It’s not that a competent Electrician can or cannot make that call, it’s that the competent Electrician will now have to state the CU/DB complies with the BS EN 61439 series standard.

 

[sparksburnout]

It’s not that a competent Electrician can or cannot make that call, it’s that the competent Electrician will now have to state the CU/DB complies with the BS EN 61439 series standard.

Oh OK. Well that's easy enough.