Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[JosephandAmber]

Agent contacts me with an urgent request for a CU upgrade in Camden. They send over an EICR done the previous month and I have a quick skim. All seems pretty simple, CU needs an upgrade and some basic tidying of fixtures etc. Only 3 circuits so I'm not overly bothered about doing another EICR prior to doing the CU replacement.

Turn up to the property and within 10 mins I note there is no visible MET, nor is there any visible earth supply coming from the head. So I head inside and run some tests, again no earth. So I knock on the basement property and ask to test their installation, again no earth. Ok, so by this point I'm baffled by the lack of a main earth. So I called UKPN who send an engineer and he confirmed my fears, the property has never had an earth supply nor will they add one. As a result, he then issues all 4 flats with a Sec 26 ESQCR notice and turns off power to the entire building.

As you can imagine with 4 privately rented flats each with their own agents and landlords it kicks off. Turns out 2 of the 4 flats had EICRs completed within the past 3 months. One had a new CU installed. The property HAS NO EARTH!

Both EICRs were issued by NICEIC approved installers. Readings were recorded that could not have physically been taken. What is going on!?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Only the members can make it happen.

I would happily refuse to pay in a joint resignation / protest

 

[Garyburger]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

 

[DefyG]

Poor Earth - Whatever that means, doesn't mean No Earth!

Surely an FI (Unsatisfactory) on the EICR?

 

[Dartlec]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

 

[Garyburger]

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

 

[Garyburger]

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

I did get the EICR

 

[Garyburger]

I did get the EICR

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[Garyburger]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[DefyG]

I did get the EICR

Presumably 'Unsatisfactory' if the main earth connection is dubious?

 

[mainline]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

 

[UNG]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

And a lot of those aren't worth the paper they are written / printed on
How does anyone lower their standards to get into these schemes

 

[ipf]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

It may be common but, let's face it AC, DI or cheapo down the pub, when talking EICR the most important word involved is COMPETENT (whether they are or not).
Are NIC insisting on AC's or not? Either way, it's not a legality.

I've been on about it for two decades, on here for the last one.
Started with PAT, on to domestic, then commercial and even industrial.
We see, in life and on this forum, an idea of just how rife is the rot. ....totally letting down and devaluing genuinely competent tradesmen.
It's a total disgrace from top to bottom....Part Pee stinks.

 

[Mike Johnson]

This happens in all technicians trades, if there is no official Government/Institute/association recognised qualifications to carry out a trade then there will be people who will take advantage, not really a surprise .

 

[ipf]

It does. A great deal of my early NICEIC work was contracting for local authorities.
Regular C of W was the rule. Now it's leave 'em to it. I watched it get worse in the 2000's when blokes supposedly in charge were coming to me for advice.

When I was a teenager, 'budget cutting' was a short back and sides.

 

[Mike Johnson]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

If the local authorities insisted on a Qualification from a certifying body, this could all change, but the body would need legislating and assent by the Secretary of State to make it viable and not some fly by night organisation made up over a beer mat by a couple of blokes cashing in on the possible legislation.

Now lets think of a name for the body, suggestions on a postcard please.

 

[Midwest]

I don't think its a failure of the system, nor the bodies employed for the system, its more to do with the honesty of the individuals carrying out work.

I would argue that the vast percentage of members on this forum are honest individuals, who would only ever carry out accurate reliable works. Are they representative of all electricians, I doubt it.

Honesty has a sliding scale though. If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

 

[ipf]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

Registered is the key word, of course.

Maybe these days it's just stick to R Electrician.
It always has been R Archangel........coz only god can 'lay a finger' on the architect.

 

[UNG]

If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

At the rate banks are closing branches it might be difficult to hand it in

A few years ago I found a £10 note on the floor in one of the aisles of a supermarket I handed it in to the customer service desk who seemed totally disinterested, I often wonder was it reclaimed or just went in someones pocket

 

[Pretty Mouth]

If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

The former is very easy to prove who the rightful owner is. The latter, nearly impossible. May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

 

[Midwest]

May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

You've just committed theft by finding. Told you honesty had a sliding scale