What percentage of Sparks voted Brexit?

[Des 56]

I am all for different views that we agree on and I too have respect for all people not just the guys here who willing help out with advice etc.
My comment was not intended as a "personal" insult merely pointing out that we DID understand what we voted for Good for you,apparently I need "small words" to understand and the constant barrage of insults towards people who voted out as racist, nazies bigots xenophobic etc etc can be a bit wearing to put it mildly I have made no such comments myself, and your statement clearly supports the view that we the leavers did not understand or are to thick to understand hence the comment.I believe we were all led astray,I believe the leavers voted out without "realising" what the the consequences may be
I support the view that we should have stayed in,I consider I am right therefore the out vote in my mind is wrong
I have never used or would never use the word thick to describe someone
As to your "new member" statement I fail to see what relevance that has to our discussion, and comes across as condescending and arrogant It was to demonstrate that a relatively new member may not be aware that the usual practice of older members (notwithstanding the forum rules) does not permit personal insult, as my time here and my time in the industry has nothing to to with the discussion we are engaged in.Seems to me to be a strange sort of discussion if thats what it is

You've had my opinion of your insulting post,you have had your say,I have responded to what you had to say
I would expect the other members are bored to tears having this "discussion" which is interrupting their thread so I will say no more about you or your attitude

 

[Adam W]

Let’s be clear this has absolutely NOTHING to do with “left” or “right”

People voted Brexit for the same reason people voted for Trump.

We all know something is wrong, we know something isn’t right, but we can’t quite put our finger on it.

There has never been as much wealth (be it fiat currency) in the world then there is now. Throughout history there has never been such an abundance.
Yet why is there no ambulances? Why do or children have inadequate education? Why do nurses and those that work in care , get paid such crap wages, even though their jobs are among the most important in our society?
Why do chief executives and CEOs get paid so much?

The answer to these questions and others like them have nothing to do with Brexit.

We have been told that it’s the Foreigners fault, “they come here stealing our jobs”

We have been told that its the fault of the poor “they sit on their arses all day and you pay for it”

Some might tell is that it’s the Muslims fault, or maybe the Mexicans.

The simple fact is all these problems come from the fact we are being robbed and hoodwinked by those with power and influence.
They have shaped the game in their favour.

They have used their wealth and assets to accrue even more.
They have used their power to influence our so called democratic systems in their favour and shape shape it in their needs and wonts.

And their master stroke which you can’t help but admire them for, is to convince us all that, it’s someone else’s fault.
They must be rolling about laughing, as we all fight amongst ourselves.

It’s simple, in times like this, when we are in peak inequality, humans default to base emotions like anger , hatred and fear.
populist leaders throughout history have capitalised on this, and have taken advantage of us in our weekest moments.

That’s why people voted Brexit.

That’s why morons voted for trump.

That why people dance to the tune, of that --- Farage

And it even explains why the weakest among us, those must easily moved to simple base emotions,Follow and look up too, that utter scum bag Tommy Robinson.

If we don’t stop fighting amongst ourselves, and unite and fight against the real enemy the top 10% then we won’t have a world to pass too our grandchildren.


We are being robbed, We need to tax WEALTH not INCOME.
We need to redistribute the wealth not only in our society but In the world. Then and only then may we be able to carve out a future for those that come after us.

Stop fighting, unite, take the power back.

... So the greedy Tories brainwashed us into voting Brexit?

 

[telectrix]

it's a fact that both tories and labour proponents of the remain campaign had vested interests in staying in. they were all feeding from the EU trough. blair for one.

 

[MDJ]

I am all for different views, and I too have respect for all people not just the guys here who willing help out with advice etc.
My comment was not intended as a "personal" insult merely pointing out that we DID understand what we voted for and the constant barrage of insults towards people who voted out as racist, nazies bigots xenophobic etc etc can be a bit wearing to put it mildly, and your statement clearly supports the view that we the leavers did not understand or are to thick to understand hence the comment.
As to your "new member" statement I fail to see what relevance that has to our discussion, and comes across as condescending and arrogant, as my time here and my time in the industry has nothing to to with the discussion we are engaged in.

Hmm lol, in your opinion, the debate was over before it began so saying we had understood what we voted for is a bit forward, we had the Tory press and comments from the tory right to read and listen to, not exactly a debate, and Farage blathering on, otherwise no real discussion, still were going out so lets get on with it.

 

[MDJ]

... So the greedy Tories brainwashed us into voting Brexit?

Some people yes, but if the labour party were in power they would have brainwashed us to stay, politicians, the scum of the earth

 

[Deleted member 26818]

-No one said immigration was going to stop though Spin, you either listened to the campaign which explicitly said controlling immigration not stopping it, unless you listen to far right idiots.
-Criminals from the EU - I think you got that the wrong way around, we have let in thousands of EU migrants that have some very disturbing criminal records because there is currently no requirement in freedom of movement to pass this info' on, when we regain control we can ensure those who are welcomed in are subject to a criminal background check.
-EU intelligence regarding terrorists, another one you are getting confused on, the UK's GCHQ has one of the biggest and most indepth databases in Europe on terrorists, it is a generation ahead of the EU's the ECIRS system and was vital to halting 4 terrorists attacks within Europe, in fact the EU system was considered completely inadequate when they investigated several terrorist attacks on their own soil, we are European leaders in terrorist info and security matters and give far more than we receive, I believe you are sounding Pro EU media here who jumped on a comment from Mr Wainwright Europol director who said if Britain left the EU it COULD effect access to the database yet he was not saying it would, he is a known Europhile and part of the EU system so it was merely more scaremongering as Interpol is a international organisation outside of the EU's reach and control and will not be effected by our exit.
-Relocating European offices, well this is a no brainer to be fair, and you shouldn't need telling, if Britain leaves then it is no longer the gateway to the EU so UK based European offices will need to relocate to Europe as they serve no purpose anymore, just like UK's EU MP's will no longer have a job, there are definate casualties of leaving and I find it hard to understand why one needs to be told that a business or position that exists solely because we are part of the EU may have to move or be lost.

That is not so, some 6,000 EU citizens have been refused entry to Britain since 2010 because of their criminal records.
Seems odd that you state no requirement in freedom of movement to pass this info on, then in the next statement mention ECRIS, the European Criminal Records Information System.
Then you compare ECRIS which is a European version of our Police National Computer with GCHQ and say it’s inferior?
Is our PNC inferior or superior to GCHQ?
Yes leaving the EU will most likely affect our access.
As far as I am aware, there is no legal way we would be able to provide information to the system and therefore it is unlikely that we will be given access to a system we will not contribute to.
Well yes the relocation of European offices is a no brainier, yet many associated with the leave campaign deny this will happen.
Though it’s not just offices that will relocate.
Manufacturing plants and factories will also relocate.
No point Toyota having a plant in Britain if the cars manufactured there cannot easily be sold in Europe.

 

[Darkwood]

@Hoon

With all respect Hoon I found your post 239 to be somewhat bizarre, you have made several claims without backing any up, you have made several sweeping statements that show a very ignorant attitude.
You have basically called more than 63 million US populous 'morons' because you have an opinion about trump - please expand on why they are, and what makes your opinion 'trump' that of 63 million people..(see what I did there )
You also make similar sweeping statements about leave voters, telling us we voted not on informed educated reasons but because we were hoodwinked by the wealthy establishment, quite offensive tbh been told I am not that educated to make a vote based on my own research and experience, I voted leave because the EU in going in directions that means it takes more and more control of its members without accountability, I want the next generation to be able to vote out those that make the laws and effect their lives not to be dictated to without any power to show their voice.

Reading your outro it becomes clear you are a socialist of some form or other and without trying to offend you you don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about, countries that come close to true socialism historically do not work in any way or form and in fact create more of the very things socialists are trying to stop, this not to be mixed up with capitalist countries with some social format which can work but only with an overlying capitalist system. You fail to forget that that filthy rich guy/girl you hate so much puts that money into a bank and it's people like him/her self doing this that gives banks the capital to lend and fund business projects, this creates work and wealth further down the ladder, if you take/steal that money from them and put it into taxes for better services etc then you begin a domino effect of social collapse, the poor getting poorer and less jobs out there, there is so much historical evidence to show this, the only system that is effective and works is the capitalist model and due to its very nature it creates different orders of wealth. When ever I see a march of protest at the wealthiest all I see is a march of real ignorance and true bitterness, you have no right to take a persons money just because you have less.

 

[Darkwood]

That is not so, some 6,000 EU citizens have been refused entry to Britain since 2010 because of their criminal records.
I suggest you do a google search for ‘ECRIS’

Yes but because they are are the ones flagged up through recent initiative of information sharing which started about 2010, potentially dangerous criminals and border patrols have been informed through intelligence when someone is refused usually, the 6000 arises from refuses since 2010 - 2016 now given that in 2016 approx 280 000 EU citizens migrated to the UK are you saying of this only a small fraction of 1% (of which are usually criminals under current surveillance and monitor) says the system is blocking criminals in general, the country is flooded with EU criminals, from organised pickpockets, to people working slaves for sex and cheap labour, many of these found and convicted here had historical criminals pasts in their country.

Even you Spin know those EU criminals caught and convicted in the UK are just the tip of the iceberg and its costing taxpayers 250million a year to house them at our majesties service.. the system doesn't work, we don't have the manpower to do it and the time to check everyones background, if you have an EU passport and no big red flag against your name then you are just allowed to walk into the UK regardless of your past.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So with the current capitalistic system we have, where the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
If we changed to a socialistic system, the poor would get poorer and the rich richer.
The Socialist countries such as Belgium, Canada, China, Denmark, Finland, Holland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and Sweden don’t work?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I understand the figure now stands at 6500 refused entry.
Of course without access to ECRIS we would not have known to refuse those 6500 entry.
To be honest, It’s probably all academic, when you consider just how much has been taken from the security and border control budgets since the Tories got in.
I imagine it won’t be long before GCHQ, the Police, Border Control and probably the Armed Forces are all nationalised.
All in the name of economy and the greater good of course.
Police Officers will become Customer Relations Officers and drive around in the familiar Red liveried cars and vans.
The portrait of the Queen in Chief Officer’s offices will have to budge over to allow room for the portrait of Richard Branson.

 

[Darkwood]

So with the current capitalistic system we have, where the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
If we changed to a socialistic system, the poor would get poorer and the rich richer.
The Socialist countries such as Belgium, Canada, China, Denmark, Finland, Holland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and Sweden don’t work?

Read my post again, I made it clear that this is not to be mistaken with countries that adapt some socialist models under a capital umbrella, all the countries you listed are not true socialist countries, the only criteria to been called a socialist country is self identification and is no reflection on the actual workings of the economy this is why so many let's say Corbynites are getting confused, they see a capitalist country identifying as a socialist because or 1 or 2 policies and they then think capitalism is the enemy and socialism works when in fact they are identifying capitalist countries in disguise.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What you actually mean is:
You don’t believe they are true socialist countries.
You probably think the old USSR was a socialist country.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Socialist Venezuela Falling Apart As President Maduro Shockingly Blames Party:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/08/01/socialist-venezuela-falling-apart-president-maduro-shockingly-blames-party

 

[Darkwood]

@Spin - Socialism as most people would like to understand it does not really exist in a modern western world due to the international capitalistic frame we are all part of therefore any arguments about it working in this country or that are flawed from the off.

@JK - Venezuela is arguably an example of socialism failure although there is a failure of the government that has worsened the crisis, many people counter any criticism of the Socialist setup been the cause by throwing the oil price crash into the loop which on reflection seems a very reasonable argument to make as 95% of exports was oil and that was 25% of the economy, but here is the thing, when prices rose and recovered somewhat back up in 2017 it should have seen the country gaining traction and getting back out of the mess it was in but it didn't and this in part is directly to do with the socialist model, in fact the economy carried on in decline, there are many interesting negatives about taking over all your industries and one is investment and external support, if you think about it, which company is going to go in looking for new oil deposits knowing that when they find any the government will just take over, this analogy is true with many aspects of socialism, it pushes away the very people that can invest in your economy, boost it and push up living standards, when you are sheltered under a capitalist umbrella then at least you are protected from the rain to some degree.

 

[JK-Electrical]

it's a fact that both tories and labour proponents of the remain campaign had vested interests in staying in. they were all feeding from the EU trough. blair for one.

Blair's chief spin-doctor and former EU trade commissioner, Peter 'Prince Of Darkness' Mandelson, certainly has his snout deep in the EU trough, doesn't he?

According to Mandelson, he's "patriotic" and we Brexiteers are just a nasty bunch of xenophobic nationalists who hate everyone and everything that isn't indigenous to the UK.

Duplicitous Mandelson then declares that he "entirely" respects "the contrary view of many others." I think this is what George Orwell was referring to when he coined the term doublethink.

 

[JK-Electrical]

@Spin - Socialism as most people would like to understand it does not really exist in a modern western world due to the international capitalistic frame we are all part of therefore any arguments about it working in this country or that are flawed from the off.

@JK - Venezuela is arguably an example of socialism failure although there is a failure of the government that has worsened the crisis, many people counter any criticism of the Socialist setup been the cause by throwing the oil price crash into the loop which on reflection seems a very reasonable argument to make as 95% of exports was oil and that was 25% of the economy, but here is the thing, when prices rose and recovered somewhat back up in 2017 it should have seen the country gaining traction and getting back out of the mess it was in but it didn't and this in part is directly to do with the socialist model, in fact the economy carried on in decline, there are many interesting negatives about taking over all your industries and one is investment and external support, if you think about it, which company is going to go in looking for new oil deposits knowing that when they find any the government will just take over, this analogy is true with many aspects of socialism, it pushes away the very people that can invest in your economy, boost it and push up living standards, when you are sheltered under a capitalist umbrella then at least you are protected from the rain to some degree.

In sum, socialism spends what capitalism earns.

 

[Darkwood]

I understand the figure now stands at 6500 refused entry.
Of course without access to ECRIS we would not have known to refuse those 6500 entry
.

You make a large assumption that we would lose access but the reality suggests otherwise, given the UK has the best intelligence and security database like already mentioned by a large margin and gives more than we ever receive and also that Interpol is external international body with which we are all members then why would they risk there own security by stopping access to the ECRIS database, they are relying heavily on the UK to build there limited database up.
I will add that on leaving we get to control the borders, you will have to apply to come and stay in the UK where relevant checks are automatically done on your criminal background and not as it stands at the moment where you have a valid passport so come on in and stay, this fact is strengthened by the agreed position of people already in the UK who may want to apply to stay post Brexit, one of the conditions is a criminal background check.

 

[JK-Electrical]

You make a large assumption that we would lose access but the reality suggests otherwise, given the UK has the best intelligence and security database like already mentioned by a large margin and gives more than we ever receive and also that Interpol is external international body with which we are all members then why would they risk there own security by stopping access to the ECRIS database, they are relying heavily on the UK to build there limited database up.
I will add that on leaving we get to control the borders, you will have to apply to come and stay in the UK where relevant checks are automatically done on your criminal background and not as it stands where you have a valid passport so come on in and stay, this fact is strengthened by the agreed position of people already in the UK who may want to apply to stay, one of the conditions is a criminal background check.

Watch: Govanhill raids target criminal gang suspected of benefit scam worth £4.6m - http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16391082.watch-govanhill-raids-target-criminal-gang-suspected-of-benefit-scam-worth-46m

The criminal gang involved in the benefit fraud are of different nationalities. Prior to the raids, leaflets were prepared in a variety of languages to inform people in the area of the action carried out by Police Scotland.

Govanhill is probably the most diverse community in Scotland. There are over 50 languages currently spoken. What we will find is a range of nationalities involved in our executive action.

 

[Hoon]

@darkwood

I’m not a socialist. I believe In capitalism. It’s not a perfect system but its better than anything else we have.
But if you believe we live in a true capitalist society then you are wrong

There’s nothing “free” about our markets.
They are heavy manipulated, and controlled.
We oppress halve the world just too keep us in a materialistic fairy tale, where we can believe everything is ok, as long as we have the latest smart phone.

And if you want statistics on how our system as it stands is currently failing then just take a look at
1)the Gina coefficient
2)child mortality rates
3) hospital waiting times
4) the cost of care
5)the cost of housing
6) child obesity rates
7) real living wages
8) the use of foods banks
9) etc

We can go on and on. The simple fact is for the first time we now have a generation that will be worse of than their parents.


If you truly believe we are better of , carrying on with the status quo than yes, you are a “moron”

If you believe that stopping immagation will improve our lot, than yes you are a “moron”.


If you believe big corporations pay their fair taxes you are not only a Moran but you are a traitor to future generations.

Simple fact is, we was in a sinking ship inside the Eu, now we are in stormy waters with only Donald’s trump love rod as a buoyancy aid.

 

[andyb]

@darkwood

I’m not a socialist. I believe In capitalism. It’s not a perfect system but its better than anything else we have.
But if you believe we live in a true capitalist society then you are wrong

You can be both, I am. The opposite to capitalism is communism.

Capitalism is good, any self employed electrician is one, but you need the state to reel in the excessive practicies and greed of unbridled capitalism.

We're all socialist when we choose to be, if you need hospital treatment, to educate our kids, even the rabid capitalists of the city suddenly discovered socialism when they needed us after the financial crises in 2008.

 

[andyb]

In sum, socialism spends what capitalism earns.

So let me guess JK, you were born in a private hospital, educated privatley, live on a private estate paying for the up keep. I could go on but I'm sure you get my point.

The opposite to socialism is not capitalism, it's individualism.
And you're welcome to that.

 

[Des 56]

Who said the future of the younger generation was not hijacked by us oldies who paid no regard to their future ?

Over 45,voted out,you should be ashamed of yourselves

 

[plugsandsparks]

Ha, i love this stuff. So the population with the most experience in the world vote out and the ones who have only just spit the dummy out vote remain and thats really relevant to justify a second referendum.... lol

 

[stuarth]

This is the problem atm with any discussion, if you don't agree with someone then you insult them, this is the second time

Over 45,voted out,you should be ashamed of yourselves

you have said that which is a shame because you started with something that looks like the start of a factual intelligent argument, I learnt my lesson not to allow silly comments into a discussion.
Please explain why everyone over 45 who voted out should be ashamed? and why everyone over 45 who voted in should not be ashamed?
I reached my decision about leaving many years ago based on what I learnt from reading papers & listening to the radio as well as talking with others who disagreed and real life experiences observing the changes in our country and politicians. In the past 10-20 years the EU has become less democratic and more about grabbing power from sovereign states and bringing about a political ideology than looking after the best interests of the European population. Heres a quick fact for you " Michel Barnier says the EU needs a 'common foreign policy and common defence' - despite Nick Clegg warning that the idea of an EU army was a 'dangerous fantasy' " both men can be viewed making their comments here and here, I could start digging around and researching more actual facts to support my opinion that we as a nation would better out of the EU super state but I have many better things to do.

 

[andyb]

This is the problem atm with any discussion, if you don't agree with someone then you insult them,

Hardly an insult Stuarth, bit silly but not insulting.

If you want to find insults in this thread you don't have to look very far.

I was correct that it was obviously to complicated for some to understand

If thats too complicated I am sure there are some knowledgable people here who could explain it to you in small words so you and your fellow remoaners can understand

typical of a small but vocal minority of self satisfied bigots who think that their view is the only legitimate view allowed.

 

[MDJ]

Who said the future of the younger generation was not hijacked by us oldies who paid no regard to their future ?

Over 45,voted out,you should be ashamed of yourselves

Hi Des,

A good graph, I think this shows how we as a nation are changing actually. People these days are just so much different than those of us over 45, the people over 45 were brought up in a different world, a world without credit, a world where most of us had a black and white telly or no telly at all, no computers, no 24 hour live news, no fake news 24-7, playing outside not inside, the youngsters today have to build their futures, it isn't for us over 50 we have had our chance and made the world what it is now, wars in the middle east, poverty, gangs and terrorism pretty much the norm now, we created a lot of it, the north south divide, Scotland getting more per head than the rest of the UK, we did it, the youngsters can change it, I voted to remain, but am now an outy, purely due to the French treating us like rubbish when we lost a million men rescuing them twice from the Germans their new best mates.

So come on youngsters show us you can make a better tommorrow.

 

[telectrix]

the under 25's are too young to remember what damage the EU has done to this country since the 70's. since the 50's we were trading with the rest of the world and our economy was going from strength to strength.soon as we joined the common market we have been subsidising most of europe's crap economies, remember the butter mountains and wine lakes that existed to maintain high prices for ineffficient lazy surrender monkey farmers with 3 sheep and 2 cows?

 

[andyb]

the under 25's are too young to remember what damage the EU has done to this country since the 70's. since the 50's we were trading with the rest of the world and our economy was going from strength to strength.soon as we joined the common market we have been subsidising most of europe's crap economies, remember the butter mountains and wine lakes that existed to maintain high prices for ineffficient lazy surrender monkey farmers with 3 sheep and 2 cows?

Well tel, since the 70's this country has prospered and got richer and richer. We're the 5th richest country in the world.
This was achieved while in the EU.
And just to help you out a little, we actually do trade with the rest of the world, where did you get the idea that we don't?

 

[FatAlan]

‘Get back control of our borders’ We can already do that but choose not do because of cost. Do you honestly think that when we leave the government are going to magic up the money to Police UK borders? We don’t even have the resources to detect who’s nicking your tools. Do you honestly think Boris and his Eton cronies give a damn about the honest working person. They are in it for themselves and just playing to the nationalist agenda. FWIW I am a Euro sceptic and voted out but I’m very worried about the way things are playing out at the moment.

 

[telectrix]

our mining industry really prospered when the Germans started selling us coal cheaper than we could produce it,