Where to buy nylon screws?

[Dartlec]

I can see both sides of this argument. While it's possible that BPG4 could be used as the basis of a case in these circumstances, it is equally possible that a similar case could be taken against someone who followed the advice in BPG4 as it didn't comply with BS7671.

Not sure why electricians often seem to be placed in the position of having to try finding a means of ensuring the safety of customers who refuse to consider their own family's safety - or that of their tenant.

I think maybe we will see guidance change a little in the future to distinguish between rental properties where the landlord is responsible for safety, and a private home where the home owner is the one taking the risks.

Or maybe BS7671 should finally get round to making things a lot clearer on how to safely maintain existing installations - and remove some of the doubt.

 

[timhoward]

Not sure why electricians often seem to be placed in the position of having to try finding a means of ensuring the safety of customers who refuse to consider their own family's safety - or that of their tenant.

I often think if electricity was wet, runny and messy like water or smelly like gas our lives would be easier.

 

[nicebutdim]

I often think if electricity was wet, runny and messy like water or smelly like gas our lives would be easier.

Had that exact thought, but struggled with finding words to compare both trades in this regard.

 

[telectrix]

I often think if electricity was wet, runny and messy like plumbers or smelly like gas "engineers" our lives would be easier.

corrected that for you.

 

[i=p/u]

Class11 fittings are recommended as a minimum in above situation and is acceptable. Just record it and jog on. Nylon screws are not required but doesn't mean some wont use them. Think.due to less than 50mm in size or something.

 

[westward10]

Class11 fittings are recommended as a minimum in above situation and is acceptable. Just record it and jog on. Nylon screws are not required but doesn't mean some wont use them. Think.due to less than 50mm in size or something.

Recommended by BS7671?

 

[i=p/u]

Reccomended by me. Bs7671 or guidance notes suggest bpg in there books.

 

[westward10]

Reccomended by me. Bs7671 or guidance notes suggest bpg in there books.

Not BS7671.

 

[i=p/u]

I know where ya comming from, but the iet can't reference bpg and then others questions to believe its ----. Your a very precise electrician westward or maybe engineer... but you know if they cant afford new wires, best thing todo is remove metal fittings. Where there to help not dictate.

 

[Rockingit]

Just to throw a spanner in the works....... the current BPG4 has nothing to say on this (issue 5)

 

[Rockingit]

BPG 4........

 

[Rockingit]

OK....It's in BPG1

 

[Rockingit]

10.7. It should be noted that the protective measure double or reinforced insulation is only applicable to electrical installations or circuits therein that are under effective supervision in normal use to ensure that
no change is made that would impair the effectiveness of the protective measure (regulation 412.1.2). Domestic and similar premises falling within the scope of this Guide cannot be considered to be under effective supervision.

I think this is a non-argument?

 

[timhoward]

10.7. It should be noted that the protective measure double or reinforced insulation is only applicable to electrical installations or circuits therein that are under effective supervision in normal use to ensure that
no change is made that would impair the effectiveness of the protective measure (regulation 412.1.2). Domestic and similar premises falling within the scope of this Guide cannot be considered to be under effective supervision.

I think this is a non-argument?

I genuinely think there are flaws whichever way we turn on this if a rewire isn't affordable at that moment in time. I also think we'll never all agree!

In a nutshell do we say that even though the old regs allowed omission of something that the new regs require, we should avoid making it a bit safer because another new reg uses "adequate supervision" as one example of how to make sure the installation isn't modified, even though the best practise guides suggest making it a bit safer as the 2nd choice last resort (3rd choice being risk assessment)

Modern regs require things old regs didn't. Modern regs also clearly say that older installations to older regs aren't necessarily dangerous. We say the regs are retrospective often enough. So anyone inspecting makes a judgement call on this and says not complying with this newer reg requiring a cpc makes it potentially dangerous.

We then have dear BPG4 relating to domestic eicr's pointing us to BPG1 regarding this issue, which starts off talking about homes not needing a cpc in lighting circuits once upon a time, goes through the hoops of what to do, and finally says in 10.7 'by the way don't do this in homes'.
But then read on - even more amusingly it goes on in 10.8 to say what to do if you reconnect one:

10.8. Subject to the recommendations of Section 10.3 to 10.5 (NOT 10.7) of this Guide being met, where lighting circuits having no protective conductor are connected to a new consumer unit, it is strongly recommended that a warning notice with black letters on a yellow background should be fixed on or adjacent to the consumer unit

Bottom line for me, if a month after I was at a property the live dropped out of a fitting and someone died changing a bulb I'd probably wish I'd ignored one interpretation of 412.1.2 and I'd put a class 2 fitting in. If they change it back, good luck to them, but I'd sleep better knowing I'd done my bit by explaining why a rewire is needed, and doing the best for them in their current situation.

Finally, genuine question - Even though RCDs are deemed additional protection, would having one on the circuit do anything to appease 412.1.2 which starts off "Where this is to be used as the sole protective measure....."

 

[westward10]

Class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. If I had a fiver for every time I said this, I follow BS7671 and not Guides and whether the client cannot afford any rewiring which is necessary is not my concern.

 

[i=p/u]

Just chill lads, its c3 for no cpc and class 2 accessories.
It's a c2 if class 1 accessories fitted.
It's a c1 if accessory is live.

And tim you well know an rcd measure imbalance of live conductors, doesn't matter if goes to moon or down a cpc.

 

[loz2754]

Class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. If I had a fiver for every time I said this, I follow BS7671 and not Guides and whether the client cannot afford any rewiring which is necessary is not my concern.

Keep saying it Westward.

I have been one to grudgingly accept, and on 2 or 3 occasions, implement, the guidance given in BPG 1, for the reason that some clients just cannot afford to rewire the lights circuits.

I'm beginning to rethink this...

 

[Pretty Mouth]

@happyhippydad hasn't stated if this is for remedials in response to an EICR, but let's assume it is. To summarise:

1 - No CPC on a lighting circuit does not comply with requirements for the protective measure:ADS in BS7671 (411.3.1.1), so warrants a code on an EICR.

2 - (assuming domestic) You can't say that the circuit complies with the requirements for the protective measure:double or reinforced insulation (412.1.2 and 412.2.3.2), it still warrants a code. This is noted in BPG1.

3 - RCDs can't be used in place of the above protective measures (415.1.2), so it definitely does not comply and needs coding.

4 - BPG4 issue 5 offers as an example : C2 Absence of a circuit protective conductor for a lighting circuit supplying items of Class I equipment, or connected to switches having metallic face plates.

However,

5 - BPG4 also offers: C3 Absence of circuit protective conductors in circuits having only Class II (or all insulated) luminaires and switches. It also references BPG1 where there is more guidance on the issue.

6 - If you trust the guidance in the BPG's, then it is possible that a lighting circuit without a CPC may still return a satisfactory outcome on an EICR.

7 - It seems many of the major industry bodies have put their names to the BPG's, so I personally assume the guidance carries some weight. Others disagree with me on this, and no one can prove either way as it is a matter of opinion. Code how you see fit.

8 - The End.

 

[westward10]

Your item 5 cannot be considered in a dwelling according to BS7671. I am sure these Guides have a large brain pool behind them but nevertheless Class II should not be considered.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Your item 5 cannot be considered in a dwelling according to BS7671. I am sure these Guides have a large brain pool behind them but nevertheless Class II should not be considered.

That is already established in point 2. It's not a matter of compliance by point 5, it's a matter of coding.