Bathroom zones and ip ratings

[Jb1410]

I’m currently upgrading my bathroom suite and was wanting to remove the old style pull chords style switches for the fan and light for a switch. They will be mounted well outside the zone 2 area in the bathroom so do I need to take any ip rating into account as well. Many thanks

 

[brianmoooore]

No problem at all, although you'll still find the odd (in more ways than one) electrician who says otherwise.
The older regulation which stipulated "out of reach of a person using a bath or shower" is arguably a better reg than the current one referring to zones.
The circuit should be protected by a 30mA RCD, of course.

 

[littlespark]

To avoid any confusion with future electricians, just put the switches on the outside of the bathroom. Back to back from where you might put them inside.

 

[brianmoooore]

To avoid any confusion with future electricians, just put the switches on the outside of the bathroom. Back to back from where you might put them inside.

Why should he change his plans just because there are electricians out there that don't know their job?

 

[Jb1410]

No problem at all, although you'll still find the odd (in more ways than one) electrician who says otherwise.
The older regulation which stipulated "out of reach of a person using a bath or shower" is arguably a better reg than the current one referring to zones.
The circuit should be protected by a 30mA RCD, of course.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Jb1410]

To avoid any confusion with future electricians, just put the switches on the outside of the bathroom. Back to back from where you might put them inside.

That would be in bedroom

 

[Dave OCD]

Although it's permissible outside of the zones I prefer to put wall switches outside the bath or shower room, just doesn't feel right as moisture and steam take no notice of BS7671 zones.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's a problem that just does not exist. Standard plate switches are more than resistant enough to moisture so as not to cause problems.
I've always installed wall switches in bath and shower rooms over my entire career, apart from the few where the bath or shower is next to the opening side of the door and only then have I fitted a pull cord or outside switches.
I have never received a single report of someone ever having received the slightest of tingles from one of my switches.

 

[DPG]

Although it's permissible outside of the zones I prefer to put wall switches outside the bath or shower room, just doesn't feel right as moisture and steam take no notice of BS7671 zones.

I must admit I don't like standard switches inside bathrooms. The amount of steam after some people have had a long shower is much like a sauna. And such a switch would not be allowed in a sauna.

Plus the danger of dripping wet people switching the light on.

Just doesn't sit right with me. What's the problem with a pull switch anyway?

 

[Dave OCD]

Fair enough Brian, we all have our own views on this one.

 

[westward10]

I rewired my bosses bathrooms last year both have plate switches in the rooms for lights and fans I don't see the issue.

 

[brianmoooore]

This subject is actually the reason I found and joined this forum several years ago.
The one time I've fallen foul of this Part P/3rd party inspection nonsense was on a pair of barn conversions where all out war had been declared between the owner of the barns and the local building control.
The 3rd party inspector was the owner of a local electrical contracting company, who was absolutely insistent that my plate switches inside the bathroom was unacceptable. We had the regs on the table in front of us, but he still wouldn't give way. He just couldn't see what the wording actually said, rather than what he wanted it to say.
Doubting my own sanity, I joined this forum, intending to post the question, but a search revealed a recent thread discussing the exact same thing, and showed that I was correct.
Switches went in the bathroom, and presumably he submitted his EIC to building control. Never heard any more about it.
When it came to the second conversion, I just submitted my own EIC as normal.

 

[Jb1410]

Although it's permissible outside of the zones I prefer to put wall switches outside the bath or shower room, just doesn't feel right as moisture and steam take no notice of BS7671 zones.

I must admit I don't like standard switches inside bathrooms. The amount of steam after some people have had a long shower is much like a sauna. And such a switch would not be allowed in a sauna.

Plus the danger of dripping wet people switching the light on.

Just doesn't sit right with me. What's the problem with a pull switch anyway?

There are now glass fronted touch screen switches which offer high ip ratings. These are dimmable for the spot lights I’ve put in and just feel like it gives a more modern look. But they are really expensive haha!! Thanks for the info

 

[7029 dave]

Why should he change his plans just because there are electricians out there that don't know their job?

You surprise me Brian, and what if there is no RCD protection (I still would not). The OP has not mentioned that, would you still fit a switch inside the bathroom.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Is a pull switch mounted on the ceiling where steam congregates any more resistant to moisture ingress than a plate switch? (rhetorical question) I suppose it's origins is in the fact you can't touch the switch itself, so is the IP rating of a switch relevant?

 

[brianmoooore]

Why should he change his plans just because there are electricians out there that don't know their job?

You surprize me Brian, and what if there is no RCD protection (I still would not). The OP has not mentioned that, would you still fit a switch inside the bathroom."

Not a question that I can answer, since I've been fitting RCDs to ALL domestic circuits since they became available. My customers have been given no choice in the matter.
The regs, however, have always allowed wall switches to be fitted in bathrooms, subject to certain distance based conditions.
I posted on here once before about the hilarious sight of the overweight SWEB head honcho, balancing on the edge of a bath, desperately trying to prove that an immersion heater switch was within reach.

 

[7029 dave]

You surprize me Brian, and what if there is no RCD protection (I still would not). The OP has not mentioned that, would you still fit a switch inside the bathroom."

Not a question that I can answer, since I've been fitting RCDs to ALL domestic circuits since they became available. My customers have been given no choice in the matter.
The regs, however, have always allowed wall switches to be fitted in bathrooms, subject to certain distance based conditions.
I posted on here once before about the hilarious sight of the overweight SWEB head honcho, balancing on the edge of a bath, desperately trying to prove that an immersion heater switch was within reach.

Bet that was some sight ha ha.
I have fond memories discussing this topic with Eng54, as many know he spent the remaining years of his life in Cyprus (I believe), and he used to say we over here were brainwashed about not putting switch's inside bathrooms lol.

 

[brianmoooore]

I he used to say we over here were brainwashed about not putting switch's inside bathrooms lol.

I fully agree. Is there any other country with a similar reg?
I remember a shower in a hotel room in either Italy or Greece (can't remember which), which had a loosely fitted plate switch inside the enclosure.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most of Europe have regulations about RCD protection on all circuits, although most older installations don't have them.

 

[Jb1410]

You surprize me Brian, and what if there is no RCD protection (I still would not). The OP has not mentioned that, would you still fit a switch inside the bathroom."

Not a question that I can answer, since I've been fitting RCDs to ALL domestic circuits since they became available. My customers have been given no choice in the matter.
The regs, however, have always allowed wall switches to be fitted in bathrooms, subject to certain distance based conditions.
I posted on here once before about the hilarious sight of the overweight SWEB head honcho, balancing on the edge of a bath, desperately trying to prove that an immersion heater switch was within reach.

Yes it’s rcd protected. Also it’s a glass fronted and touch screen so no mechanical moving parts for ingress of water/steam and very poor conductor of electricity. Some great feedback on here thanks again

 

[nicebutdim]

Good points on both sides of this subject - most of which have been posted before. Other than in a large bathrrom I've never been comfortable with wall mounted switches inside bathrooms. Have I been conditined to think this way? Probably, but it's not easy to change a lifetime of thinking.

 

[7029 dave]

Good points on both sides of this subject - most of which have been posted before. Other than in a large bathrrom I've never been comfortable with wall mounted switches inside bathrooms. Have I been conditined to think this way? Probably, but it's not easy to change a lifetime of thinking.

I just cant, I feel queasy thinking about it.!!
As for sockets I would be physically sick lol

 

[LastManOnline]

It's a problem that just does not exist.

I support that conclusion 100%.I also comepletly understand the reticence of the other posters. Afterall the message that wall switches in bathrooms place the user in mortal danger continues to be preached to every electrical apprentice from day one. That's the same apprentice who will travel to Spain, Italy America and most of the rest of the world and not give a second thought to using a wallswitch in his bathroom while on holidays

 

[brianmoooore]

What's the problem with a pull switch anyway?

Just noticed this post.
Nothing much wrong with A pull switch, but this is 2022.
It's change over day for two of my holiday cottages today, so I've been in three bathrooms. They all have plate switches in the room and all of them 4G.
Four colour coded pull cords hanging from the ceiling? Rooms just don't have one switch any more.

 

[nicebutdim]

I support that conclusion 100%.I also comepletly understand the reticence of the other posters. Afterall the message that wall switches in bathrooms place the user in mortal danger continues to be preached to every electrical apprentice from day one. That's the same apprentice who will travel to Spain, Italy America and most of the rest of the world and not give a second thought to using a wallswitch in his bathroom while on holidays

Oddly enough it's a conversation we had at college and the tutor was broadly in agreement with points made by @brianmoooore

 

[AJB Temple]

Use Quinetic switches surely. Zero risk and put them wherever you want.

 

[brianmoooore]

But it's 'zero risk' with ordinary plate switches.

 

[littlespark]

There’s zero risk with even a socket in a bathroom, unless you are in the habit of going for a bath with a plugged in toaster.
The regs are to minimise risk as much as possible.

In my en-suite, I can be standing in the shower, screen door open, bathroom door open, and I can touch the switches in the bedroom with wet hands…. But I’m not going to!

When I visited New Zealand, they had an RCD socket in the bathroom. No special pin sizes, could have been used for anything.

There are erroneous regulations throughout the book… why are WCs and kitchen sinks free from special location regs? Why do bathroom zones sometimes stop short of the height of a bathroom?

We can all work to the letter of the law, but there’s no problem going that extra mile to make things even more safer…..
So for me, bathroom switches and shower isolators are on the wall, outside the bathroom completely. I try not to use pull cords simple because they break too easily

 

[Mike Johnson]

I try not to use pull cords simple because they break too easily

Only if you have children who swing on them.

 

[littlespark]

Only if you have children who swing on them.

Or older folk pulling them a little too hard.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Or older folk pulling them a little too hard.

I resemble that remark.