Dodgy wiring

[sparksburnout]

Not sure what you mean??????

Sorry I might have misunderstood, are you an "electrician" doing this for a paying customer or just mucking about with your own electrics?

 

[sparky1508]

Sorry I might have misunderstood, are you an "electrician" doing this for a paying customer or just mucking about with your own electrics?

Here you go. What's the answer.

 

[sparky1508]

Not worried about switch 2. Ceiling rose and switch 1. Black sleeved cpc is continuous with earth and so are the 2 neutrals at the switch. Please teach me as to why it is wired this way.

 

[sparksburnout]

Not worried about switch 2. Ceiling rose and switch 1. Black sleeved cpc is continuous with earth and so are the 2 neutrals at the switch. Please teach me as to why it is wired this way.

You might need to ask one of the moderators but there is a trainee section you can post this sort of thing in, sorry I thought you were an actual electrician from your profile.

 

[sparky1508]

You might need to ask one of the moderators but there is a trainee section you can post this sort of thing in, sorry I thought you were an actual electrician from your profile.

I am a newly qualified domestic installer. I am assuming you dont know the answer either then as you haven't given one. Without taking the whole circuit apart and checking every length of cable to see what goes where it's impossible to know what is going on. Clearly I'm the idiot and you must be the guide from your comment so please guide me.

 

[sparksburnout]

Well, you may find it a bit disappointing to realise that very often in the great world outside the training room there will be all sorts of non-standard, strange, bodged, lashed up and generally quite confusing wiring arrangements. Lighting circuits are often in this category, and, I would say, amongst the worst. I have heard that more guys are killed working on lighting circuits (in domestic environments) that anything else, not sure myself but can well believe it. At the end of the day I would not try and attempt to work it out from a description or smoke-packet type drawing, what you need to do is employ your inspection and testing skills to determine whats is going where and what needs to be done to sort it. You may well have to take the whole circuit apart if that is what needs to be done, welcome to the wonderful world of domestic electrics!!

 

[sparky1508]

Ok thanks for the insight. In the meantime I will investigate further.

 

[sparksburnout]

Ok thanks for the insight. In the meantime I will investigate further.

That's what it boils down to mate. You will spend hours poking around some grotty loft trying to work out what some DIY'er has cobbled together, and yes, sometimes you will be better off starting from scratch, time-wise. I'm not trying to be funny, it's just how it is. The only relief is when you give them the bill.........

 

[Midwest]

Agree with sparksburnout, my fare is kitchen & bathroom refurbishments, but spend most of my installs putting right the DIY of yesteryear, should be a law against it, DIY that is


PS still no like button?

 

[sparksburnout]

Oh and as a footnote pinching the CPC for various uses is quite a favourite of the DIYer and even some "electricians"!!

 

[7029 dave]

Here you go. What's the answer.
View attachment 32885View attachment 32886

Looking at the first pic, to me it looks like that is the S/L cable and somebody has used the cpc as a neutral down to the switch position.

 

[sparky1508]

Looking at the first pic, to me it looks like that is the S/L cable and somebody has used the cpc as a neutral down to the switch position.

That was my first thought but on doing R1/R2 it turns out that the cpc sleeved black is actually connected back to earth and so are the 2 actual neutrals in switch 1. They were still connected to earth with the entire 9 conductors separated at the ceiling so it tells me neutral and cpc are interconnected elsewhere.

 

[7029 dave]

That was my first thought but on doing R1/R2 it turns out that the cpc sleeved black is actually connected back to earth and so are the 2 actual neutrals in switch 1. They were still connected to earth with the entire 9 conductors separated at the ceiling so it tells me neutral and cpc are interconnected elsewhere.

So we know the switch line cable cpc is connected to N on the ceiling position where is it connected at the switch.?

 

[westward10]

Try not to rip this circuit apart you will get more confused. Break it down methodically and if necessary draw a plan to see if you can narrow the problem down.

 

[sparky1508]

So we know the switch line cable cpc is connected to N on the ceiling position where is it connected at the switch.?

Sleeved black again and connected to neutral which is also connected to earth. No idea where that neutral goes after that without starting to take the circuit apart. Customer can't afford to pay for full investigation as the job was only supposed to be changing the pendants as they are moving house and wanted to take other fittings with them.

 

[7029 dave]

I would say at a guess, that cpc is connected at the switch position to earth hence your NE interconnection, just take the switch plate off and look.

 

[westward10]

I know this is a bit late but for future reference always test the circuit before undertaking any works on it so this issue doesn't arise again.

 

[andyb]

That was my first thought but on doing R1/R2 it turns out that the cpc sleeved black is actually connected back to earth and so are the 2 actual neutrals in switch 1. They were still connected to earth with the entire 9 conductors separated at the ceiling so it tells me neutral and cpc are interconnected elsewhere.

Did you disconnect the neutral of this circuit at the board before testing?

 

[sparky1508]

I would say at a guess, that cpc is connected at the switch position to earth hence your NE interconnection, just take the switch plate off and look.

Done that, one of the 2 blacks at the switch is cpc sleeved with insulation from black conductor the other one is an actual neutral but it has continuity with earth even with all conductors at the ceiling separated. This is what make me think the interconnection is elsewhere in the circuit. I would need to dismantle the circuit bit by bit and do continuity on each section to find what's going on but like I said, I have spoken to the customer about the problem but they haven't got the budget to pay for and investigation that would probably take a whole day. I have told them of the risks and changed all light fitting to the standard plastic ones now so minimal risk but still a risk in my eyes.

 

[7029 dave]

Well going by your drawing it's 3plate and if it's been wired like that at every ceiling position, the interconnection will be at every point? you have trouble, you need to drop every rose and look. It can't be left.