Does a SPD need a dedicated MCB?

[westward10]

The original question can you pair it with the SPD no, mode 3 chargers need connecting to a dedicated circuit.

 

[oscar21]

The original question can you pair it with the SPD no, mode 3 chargers need connecting to a dedicated circuit.

Yes I know but I live in the real world. Regs like this were brought about so you didn't piggy back them off something like a socket circuit that was already loaded.

Lets take an immersion circuit, they used to run off a fused spur from the ring without any problem whatsoever, then someone said dedicated circuit only which made sense because all of a sudden socket circuits had more than a wooden lamp plugged into them.

Would I connect an immersion to the ring circuit nowadays? No way. Would I wire a boiler from the same circuit as the new immersion feed I've just wired, absolutely if it saved a second run of 2.5 across the house because the boiler uses such a minuscule amount of power that it wont affect the immersion circuit (that will never be used) one little bit.

The SPD uses zero current, it could probably be connected to the bus bar right on the other side of the MCB without any issue whatsoever, the electrons don't know where its connected so apart from upsetting someone who wrote a vastly overpriced book, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

And that philosophy has been proven the world over by countless millions of people.

 

[westward10]

Yes I know but I live in the real world. Regs like this were brought about so you didn't piggy back them off something like a socket circuit that was already loaded.

Lets take an immersion circuit, they used to run off a fused spur from the ring without any problem whatsoever, then someone said dedicated circuit only which made sense because all of a sudden socket circuits had more than a wooden lamp plugged into them.

Would I connect an immersion to the ring circuit nowadays? No way. Would I wire a boiler from the same circuit as the new immersion feed I've just wired, absolutely if it saved a second run of 2.5 across the house because the boiler uses such a minuscule amount of power that it wont affect the immersion circuit (that will never be used) one little bit.

The SPD uses zero current, it could probably be connected to the bus bar right on the other side of the MCB without any issue whatsoever, the electrons don't know where its connected so apart from upsetting someone who wrote a vastly overpriced book, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

And that philosophy has been proven the world over by countless millions of people.

None of that has any relevance whatsoever. As I said I don't care what you do but you came here and asked. Do what you like and bodge it that is clearly the way you operate because you are ignorant to improving your knowledge.

 

[Thomas knott]

Yes I know but I live in the real world. Regs like this were brought about so you didn't piggy back them off something like a socket circuit that was already loaded.

Lets take an immersion circuit, they used to run off a fused spur from the ring without any problem whatsoever, then someone said dedicated circuit only which made sense because all of a sudden socket circuits had more than a wooden lamp plugged into them.

Would I connect an immersion to the ring circuit nowadays? No way. Would I wire a boiler from the same circuit as the new immersion feed I've just wired, absolutely if it saved a second run of 2.5 across the house because the boiler uses such a minuscule amount of power that it wont affect the immersion circuit (that will never be used) one little bit.

The SPD uses zero current, it could probably be connected to the bus bar right on the other side of the MCB without any issue whatsoever, the electrons don't know where its connected so apart from upsetting someone who wrote a vastly overpriced book, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter.

And that philosophy has been proven the world over by countless millions of people.

Until the immersion element blows down to earth and you've suddenly got immersion and no boiler either.

Also the immersion would be on a high current MCB the inrush current and high fault current of a earth fault would likely blow the PCBs of the boiler.

Of course it'll work fine but there's a reason we separate loads and design circuits based on the load they carry and separate vulnerable equipment.

Put the SPD on its own breaker as the manufacturer requires in their data sheet. And a 3 phase charger will require more than just a MCB to protect it. The last fast charger I helped to put in had to have a 4 pole breaker that disconnected the earth and an earth cage under the concrete.

But you'll just stick it in with the SPD to save on a new enclosure just below the DB.

 

[oscar21]

Until the immersion element blows down to earth and you've suddenly got immersion and no boiler either.

Also the immersion would be on a high current MCB the inrush current and high fault current of a earth fault would likely blow the PCBs of the boiler.

Of course it'll work fine but there's a reason we separate loads and design circuits based on the load they carry and separate vulnerable equipment.

Put the SPD on its own breaker as the manufacturer requires in their data sheet. And a 3 phase charger will require more than just a MCB to protect it. The last fast charger I helped to put in had to have a 4 pole breaker that disconnected the earth and an earth cage under the concrete.

But you'll just stick it in with the SPD to save on a new enclosure just below the DB.

Most of thats rubbish, you must know that. If the immersion blew you would simply switch it off at the DP switch and carry on using the boiler circuit, apart from the fact the immersion is only used if the boiler breaks, not the other way round. As for blowing the PCB fuses, how? you could spur off a socket for a boiler FCU and plug a big heater into the socket, if the heater wen't bang that wouldn't affect the boiler would it.

Secondly how will putting a separate enclosure next to the mains help my situation, its either a complete new board or an additional 3 phase board, splitting the tails and all the work that ensues, it will cost a good few hundred either way and the bloke doesn't want to pay that. As it happens the manufacturer have got back to me and stated it needs RCD protection so I will be fitting a separate enclose for that. They didn't mention earth grids etc. Why would they, what happens if someone doesn't park on it and charges their car?

Normally I'd say I cant do it but he is the best giver of work and payer we've ever had and I'm not putting that at risk by being awkward, especially when the next electrician turns up, bodges it in 5 minutes and says how easy it was. So if the worst that will happen is a few regs fans have a little cry then I'm all for it.

 

[westward10]

What is your earthing system?
What type of RCD will you use?
Don't forget DNO notification.

 

[oscar21]

TNC-S
Type B
Bloke says he doesn't care.

 

[westward10]

If this is for outside charger and it doesn't incorporate open PEN protection you need to put measures in place. Most do now but something from EBay I would be dubious about.
But hey you don't care.
DNO notification is required.

 

[oscar21]

If this is for outside charger and it doesn't incorporate open PEN protection you need to put measures in place. Most do now but something from EBay I would be dubious about.
But hey you don't care.
DNO notification is required.

I do care, I don't do dangerous stuff, I just don't do everything anyone tells me to do, if I think a reg is daft or over the top I'll do what I think is right, I use common sense instead of blind faith. The limited instructions I linked to earlier state that it has open PEN protection and ground protection (whatever that is) you have to go into the display settings to turn it on apparently.

 

[oscar21]

What I do find baffling though is this is meant to be the future, the government want everyone in little electric euro boxes but if I was doing a similar job to this for an independent customer I'd want about £2-3K to even think about getting involved, its not a line of work I would like to get into at all, far too many hoops to jump though.

There must be a fair few others that think like me as well which can only cause problems for the end user, they will want an easy life and just end up buying another diesel. .

 

[littlespark]

The DNO need to know so that they can estimate and plan future works to improve the infrastructure.

If a load of EV charge points are put in without them knowing… there will be sections of their network carrying much more than it was designed for.


Whether we like it or not, the govt are pushing EV, and if you don’t take it up…. You will be left behind.

 

[westward10]

If the maximum demand including the EV charger exceeds 13.8 kva you must inform them prior to installation if not you can install and notify after.

 

[UNG]

Secondly how will putting a separate enclosure next to the mains help my situation, its either a complete new board or an additional 3 phase board, splitting the tails and all the work that ensues, it will cost a good few hundred either way and the bloke doesn't want to pay that. As it happens the manufacturer have got back to me and stated it needs RCD protection so I will be fitting a separate enclose for that. They didn't mention earth grids etc. Why would they, what happens if someone doesn't park on it and charges their car?

So cost is above safety and doing the job properly

Normally I'd say I cant do it but he is the best giver of work and payer we've ever had and I'm not putting that at risk by being awkward, especially when the next electrician turns up, bodges it in 5 minutes and says how easy it was. So if the worst that will happen is a few regs fans have a little cry then I'm all for it.

And this makes me wonder what other corners you have cut in the past, clearly with his work cost is the big factor he continues to give you the work because your cheaper than the rest because you are cutting corners / ignoring or bending the rules / regs / using inferior products
When you certify the jobs do you indicate all the departures from the regs on the cert
If you are disregarding the regs why not just take the SPD out does the installation really need it when someone else thought it did

I always work on the principle could I justify my actions to that man of woman in the wig who could facilitate a large financial penalty and / or an enforced stay at one of the many HM hotels if it goes seriously or fatally wrong, if you feel you can then crack on

 

[mainline]

Yes I know but I live in the real world. Regs like this were brought about so you didn't piggy back them off something like a socket circuit that was already loaded.

A good reason then.

Lets take an immersion circuit, they used to run off a fused spur from the ring without any problem whatsoever, then someone said dedicated circuit only which made sense because all of a sudden socket circuits had more than a wooden lamp plugged into them.

That's not true, I've seen many fused 13amp immersion fuse holders burnt up.

Would I connect an immersion to the ring circuit nowadays? No way. Would I wire a boiler from the same circuit as the new immersion feed I've just wired, absolutely if it saved a second run of 2.5 across the house

Why would you even use a 2.5mm for a 3amp boiler circuit.

because the boiler uses such a minuscule amount of power that it wont affect the immersion circuit (that will never be used) one little bit.

The SPD uses zero current,

It will in a fault condition.

And that philosophy has been proven the world over by countless millions of people.

As long as it works never mind eh!

 

[mainline]

Most of thats rubbish, you must know that. If the immersion blew you would simply switch it off at the DP switch and carry on using the boiler circuit, apart from the fact the immersion is only used if the boiler breaks, not the other way round. As for blowing the PCB fuses, how? you could spur off a socket for a boiler FCU and plug a big heater into the socket, if the heater wen't bang that wouldn't affect the boiler would it.

I do have to agree there lol.

They didn't mention earth grids etc. Why would they, what happens if someone doesn't park on it and charges their car?

It seems you have no idea about what an earth grid is.

I do care, I don't do dangerous stuff, I just don't do everything anyone tells me to do, if I think a reg is daft or over the top I'll do what I think is right, I use common sense instead of blind faith. The limited instructions I linked to earlier state that it has open PEN protection and ground protection (whatever that is) you have to go into the display settings to turn it on apparently.

Did you actually read that in the instructions ?
Installation manuals are quite handy sometimes.

Normally I'd say I cant do it but he is the best giver of work and payer we've ever had and I'm not putting that at risk by being awkward, especially when the next electrician turns up, bodges it in 5 minutes and says how easy it was. So if the worst that will happen is a few regs fans have a little cry then I'm all for it.

Wonder how long it will be before another spark comes along and says ..... Who the fk did this

 

[timhoward]

Bloke says he doesn't care.

It's not him fitting it, it's you. He'll be the first to throw you under the bus if he wants PV and battery next year and the MCS guy mentions the EVCP on his site survey.

Please believe me that the DNO are your friends here. It takes very little admin effort to fill out the form and email them. They don't mind clarifying and discussion about details, and in one early case helpfully pointed out me how I could turn it into a "connect and notify"

 

[Resistance is Futile]

This guy has got to be on the wind up.

 

[oscar21]

This guy has got to be on the wind up.

Why would I be on the windup, not everyone is a goody two shoes.

Anyway went today and found this label on the side of it, more confused than ever now.

So does that mean it has type A/AC protection built into it or it needs it, I thought if it needed RCD protection it should be type B.

We did have a look inside it as we were going to put a longer flex on it (which is a simple job if we do it) and it does have a CT round the input wires (all apart from the earth) this was plugged onto the PCB but no obvious RCD inside it like the Zapi's have.

 

[oscar21]

Another thing I've just thought of, what about all the other RCBO's in the board, I've not had to touch them yet but if the charger is installed could the DC affect them, do they need changing to type A (if they aren't already) or even type B's.

I honestly don't know why anyone would get involved in this game, its an absolute minefield, thats not to mention the costs involved. It could cost a householder thousands to get up to spec just for the privilege of driving an electric vehicle, which isn't much cheaper than a diesel to run. And that's without adding the install costs to it, then you have to wait all day to "fill it up" and it only has a limited distance compared to normal fuel.

Then there are the repair costs, if something goes wrong you cant work on them yourself, I took our DPF to bits at the weekend and jet-washed it out, good as new. People must be absolutely nuts to go electric, I don't see one plus point, not even close.

 

[oscar21]

Thats from the ebay listing, it says it has PEN fault detection protection and GROUND fault detection protection, surely the second one is an RCD, but the email reply I got back from iON says it isn't built in.

With all the chargers available, why would someone buy the cheapest chinesium charger off ebay, especially when it is going to charge an £80k car.