Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation

[ackbarthestar]

Good morning chaps and chappesses,
I've been called out on several occasions recently to either sort out electrical faults or install electrical components in Gas heating CH systems.
As an Electrician I'm not unhappy with this since it provides me with an extra source of work but what concerns me are
1/ Why cannot Gas fitters do this work?
2/ Why aren't Gas fitters trained to do the necessary electrical work associated with their own trade?
3/ Why Gas fitters will not attempt to do Electrical work associated with their associated trade because of their perceived fear of breaching the new Part P rules?
4/ Why this demarcation has not been sorted out?

It is leading to a fragmented industry where the new Gas fitters will only do installations and will not bother to do any fault finding, for other reasons also, but primarily that they are weary about fault finding electrical problems associated with the faults.
The more experienced gas fitters who are able to fault find electrical problems associated with CH systems are now retiring out of the trade which makes them as rare as rock horse doo doos.
:6:
It used to be that Gas fitters had to do a specific electrical module, Essential Electrics, as part of their basic training to be registered for CORGI, ACOPs , but then got dropped when CORGI and then GAS SAFE took control of the registration process.

Any thoughts?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Long may it continue that partly trained gas plumbers in electrics, do not interfere in electrical work.

I won't tell them how to plumb in a gas boiler or fault find a gas problem.

 

[kung]

I think also gas fitters earn enough money without getting involved in the electrical side so most dont bother to learn esp since as you say the introduction of part p.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Malcolm,
Thanks for your reply
but because of the nature of the domestic CH/HW systems, the Gas,Water and Electrics are so interrelated that its complete madness to be regarded as a Gas fitter/plumber competent to fit and fault find boilers when they don't or won't attempt to work on the electrical control side.
Would you expect a car mechanic not to be able to sort out the electrical problems when vehicle won't start?

 

[ackbarthestar]

Kung,
Agreed, An installer can earn a packet without going to the trouble of the black art of fault finding, but that makes for a cowboy industry where if your boiler goes wrong you will get:
'Sorry mate, the fault is related to the recognized faults with that boiler, we'll replace it with this one'.
The recognized faults, of course, are what in the automotive industry would be regarded as a recall notice.

 

[kung]

Couldnt we use the same argument when we do a rewire that if were working on the electrical side of a ch system we should get trained on gas to work on that as well ? if they want to work on electrics they can as long as they comply with the regs and part p ! but most cant be bothered.

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest I could repair cars now, as most of them use diagnostic tools via a laptop. In fact in the good old days you would have had the mechanic and the Auto sparks.

I think to be honest that in the 70/80/s when CH became the norm, a monkey drunk on cider had a fair chance of wiring up a CH system, so I had no doubt so would a gas plumber.

The systems have developed since and I think that even the most basic is perhaps beyond quite a few gas plumbers.

 

[kung]

My brother in law is a gas fault engineer with british gas and has worked there for 40yrs and he cant be bothered as he makes enough money just working on gas same with his mates who are gas fitters also plus most gas fitters know sparks who they get to do the electrical side ! less hassle for them.

 

[kung]

I do agree though if you have a boiler fault you call a gas installer and some charge a call out regardless only to be told its on the electrical side sorry mate you need a spark ! dont make sense i know m8.

 

[kung]

Few years back my aunt had a gas fitter called out because he boiler stopped working so £££££ later he left and returned a week later with a new control pcb and fitted it ! it cost her £££££££££££££££££££££££££ big money anyway i took the old control pcb home and tested it faultfinding it to a 24p cap ! if only they had some basic electronic knowledge as well !

 

[ackbarthestar]

Funny I should bring this subject up, but I popped round to a friends this morning after I had opened this thread and had a peep at the latest Which magazine where I found a report on Boiler service repairs.
Not particularly good news.
All the call out charges were between £77-£150
A basic service with a combined simple electrical fault such as a disconnected wire where only 2 out 6 independent 'engineers' were able to rectify the fault and do a proper service, one had suggested that the boiler need replacing - duh ! :dunce:
The major players didn't fair that well either.
One engineer had to be called out 3 times, for which a service charge was added each time.
I wonder whether sniffing all that gas over a period of time affects the mentality and the will to live with some of these guys?
At least when a sparkie gets it wrong he/she is 'shocked' into action, not put to sleep !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of my mates is a plumber, and I ocasionally I work with him.
I often comment on the fact that sometimes his work leaks (not gas obviously), but mine doesn't.

 

[chris murphy]

Good morning chaps and chappesses,
I've been called out on several occasions recently to either sort out electrical faults or install electrical components in Gas heating CH systems.
As an Electrician I'm not unhappy with this since it provides me with an extra source of work but what concerns me are
1/ Why cannot Gas fitters do this work?
2/ Why aren't Gas fitters trained to do the necessary electrical work associated with their own trade?
3/ Why Gas fitters will not attempt to do Electrical work associated with their associated trade because of their perceived fear of breaching the new Part P rules?
4/ Why this demarcation has not been sorted out?

It is leading to a fragmented industry where the new Gas fitters will only do installations and will not bother to do any fault finding, for other reasons also, but primarily that they are weary about fault finding electrical problems associated with the faults.
The more experienced gas fitters who are able to fault find electrical problems associated with CH systems are now retiring out of the trade which makes them as rare as rock horse doo doos.
:6:
It used to be that Gas fitters had to do a specific electrical module, Essential Electrics, as part of their basic training to be registered for CORGI, ACOPs , but then got dropped when CORGI and then GAS SAFE took control of the registration process.

Any thoughts?

"Hello ackbarthestar",

There IS a Method of Heating Engineers `Qualifying` and Registering on an Electrical Competent Persons Scheme - This involves them taking an Electrical - `Essential Electrics` Course and passing the Assessments - PRIOR to then being eligible to take a `Defined Scope` Part P Electrical Course and then Passing the Assessment / Exam at the end of the Course.

This would `Qualify` them to Part P - Level B - They would then be Eligible to Join an Electrical Competent Persons Scheme - which then enables a Heating Engineer / Plumber to carry out Works ASSOCIATED with Their Trade ONLY - NOT House Rewires etc. - JUST Works that can be Justified as related to Their Heating Systems etc.

Obviously as the Electrical Experts on here will know Learning enough about Electrical Systems and Work in a VERY Short period that these Course last - Perhaps a Total of 3 Weeks - would be quite a Task ! - AND Very Expensive - Although many Heating Engineers have taken this route to be able to Legally carry out their own Heating System Wiring.


Chris - Heating - Plumbing & Gas Installer

 

[ackbarthestar]

I agree with you, there are many Gas fitters who recognize the necessity to get 'qualified' so they can continue to do the job they have, or should have, been trained for.
I think the point i was making at the end was, Gas training had a compulsory module called 'essential electrics' where gas fitters had to do a certain amount of electrical installation and fault finding associated with their trade before they were let loose with boiler maintenance.

 

[chris murphy]

I agree with you, there are many Gas fitters who recognize the necessity to get 'qualified' so they can continue to do the job they have, or should have, been trained for.
I think the point i was making at the end was, Gas training had a compulsory module called 'essential electrics' where gas fitters had to do a certain amount of electrical installation and fault finding associated with their trade before they were let loose with boiler maintenance.

"Hello ackbarthestar,

I am a Heating Engineer / Registered Gas Installer - As well as the Gas Training that I did in My Plumbing City & Guilds [MANY Years ago] - I have completed ALL of the Domestic Gas Assessments that BOTH the `Old` ACOPS and the ACS [Now] have to Offer.

Although I have not needed Training in Gas Utilisation / Safety for many Years because I have ENSURED that I kept fully Up to Date with everything - I DID take the ACOP [Years ago] `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services - These were NOT Compulsory - But I felt that I should have these `Qualifications` - JUST in order to work Safely on Gas Appliances - As far as I was concerned.

There have NEVER been Compulsory Electrical Courses relating to Gas Qualifications - Although the Colleges and other Training / Assessment Providers DID Try to Influence Us with the statement that `We would NOT be SAFE to work on Gas Appliances that were `Electrically Live` without the Basics of Electrical Knowledge` - Which I found to be a Correct statement - Hence I did take the ACOPS `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical installation for Mechanical Services`.


I have also taken the Part P Defined Scope - Level B - As I thought at one point that I would like to carry out My own Heating System Wiring - I then decided that because of the requirements of My Clients to have ALL of the Electrical Works Certified by ONE Electrical Contractor - I do NOT want to wire My own Heating Systems - And have used correctly Qualified / Registered Electricians ONLY [Often supplied by the Builder] since about 2004.


Chris

 

[ackbarthestar]

"Hello ackbarthestar,

I am a Heating Engineer / Registered Gas Installer - As well as the Gas Training that I did in My Plumbing City & Guilds [MANY Years ago] - I have completed ALL of the Domestic Gas Assessments that BOTH the `Old` ACOPS and the ACS [Now] have to Offer.

Although I have not needed Training in Gas Utilisation / Safety for many Years because I have ENSURED that I kept fully Up to Date with everything - I DID take the ACOP [Years ago] `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services - These were NOT Compulsory - But I felt that I should have these `Qualifications` - JUST in order to work Safely on Gas Appliances - As far as I was concerned.

There have NEVER been Compulsory Electrical Courses relating to Gas Qualifications - Although the Colleges and other Training / Assessment Providers DID Try to Influence Us with the statement that `We would NOT be SAFE to work on Gas Appliances that were `Electrically Live` without the Basics of Electrical Knowledge` - Which I found to be a Correct statement - Hence I did take the ACOPS `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical installation for Mechanical Services`.


I have also taken the Part P Defined Scope - Level B - As I thought at one point that I would like to carry out My own Heating System Wiring - I then decided that because of the requirements of My Clients to have ALL of the Electrical Works Certified by ONE Electrical Contractor - I do NOT want to wire My own Heating Systems - And have used correctly Qualified / Registered Electricians ONLY [Often supplied by the Builder] since about 2004.


Chris

Ok, Before we kick off .........

you have probably followed your conscience and done what is needed Now what are you trying to say?

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello ackbarthestar",

I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?

Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.


What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -

`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?


Chris

 

[ackbarthestar]

"Hello ackbarthestar",

I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?

Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.


What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -

`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?


Chris

Chris,

No offense mean't

Don't British Gas trainees have to do the electrical modules as part of their gas and heating qualification?

Also, as I recall, C&G heating and ventilation/ Gas quals include sections on safe isolation, earthing and bonding, heating controls.

 

[sambotc]

I trained as a gas engineer through an apprenticeship 12 years ago when I left school. At that time the ACS had just replaced ACOPS and there was no requirement to cover the electrical side. I think the gas industry has become a bit of a mess to be fair. The recent increase in numbers and 12 week training courses has led to the knowledge of your average gas/heating engineer being far less than it was years ago. From reading this forum I get the feeling the situation is no better in the electrical trade. To top it off, I have recently passed my 17th edition through a fast track college! This college is linked to the company I work for so due to our line of work taking a different avenue (in the shape of solar P.V and renewables) the course was offered to me.

I had already passed the part P course and my knowledge of electrical was reasonable after spending many hours at home learning the fundamentals off my own back.

I got the distinct feeling of being rail roaded into passing the exam, and although I passed, I am on here most nights reading up to extend my knowledge, as I don't feel like the course for 17th was adequate.

The problem in my opinion is down to the colleges handing out certificates here, there and everywhere, the tradesmen have been diluted with numb nuts who hold the relevant tickets but lack some of the more basic skills such as common sense etc. So if they can't learn their own trade, what chance have they got of being competent in another trade at the same time?

Also you mention service engineers, this is another area where the gas qualifications have missed the mark. Hanging a boiler on the wall and running some pipes to it is a different ball game to opening the case and trying to find a fault, the later should be a separate trade with different requirements such as basic electrical skills. as you all know, new condensing boilers require a lot of electrical components to operate, but if you carry out an ACS exam on boilers, you will not get asked a single question about the electrical operation of the boiler, where's the sense in that?

 

[chris murphy]

Chris,

No offense mean't

Don't British Gas trainees have to do the electrical modules as part of their gas and heating qualification?

Also, as I recall, C&G heating and ventilation/ Gas quals include sections on safe isolation, earthing and bonding, heating controls.

"Hello ackbarthestar",

Thanks for your Reply.

It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.


I recently spoke to a British Gas Engineer who was Fitting a Meter for My Neighbour - He was a Young Man of about 24 - His next Job was an Electrical one - After that a Boiler Breakdown - another Meter install and then another Electrical Job - I wish that I had asked what kind of `Electrical Jobs` He was going to be doing but I did not.

His example of being Trained and Qualified for both Gas and Electrical works MAY be the `Way of the Future` - But I cannot imagine that the Electrical Profession would necessarily Welcome that ??

I mentioned previously that Electrical Training within other Trades Apprenticeships would be a GOOD Thing - and what You suggested SHOULD be the case when Gas Fitters / Engineers and Plumbing and Heating Engineers are doing their Apprenticeships - as I feel sure that the Apprenticeships could be structured to include Electrical Training - as they last for a period of Years this could definitely include at least Basic Electrical Safety / Isolation and Installation / Earthing etc.

Your example of Heating and Ventilation City & Guilds probably does include Electrical Training as that particular Trade - which is NOT the same as `Wet Heating` - Does include working with Air Handling Units - Large Electrical Fans - Electrical Controls on the Heating Coil Units which are connected to a Usually Industrial / Commercial Heating System.

Because of these points - and other reasons - I would expect that particular City & Guilds to include quite a lot of Electrical Training.

I do hope that what You suggested IS put in place - with EVERY Trade that deals with any Electrical Process / Appliance with Electrical Controls etc. having Electrical Training within the Apprenticeship Training.

I would advocate this in ALL Training for Work that involves coming into contact with Electrical Systems / Appliances - BUT with Shorter Course Training it would obviously be harder to Incorporate this [ Substantial ?] amount of Time into the Courses - without Increasing the Costs Substantially.

ALSO - I wonder IF all of Your `Colleagues` / Members on here would necessarily Agree with this approach ?? - It could be said that this would reflect in a Detrimental Way on the Electrical Profession - ?? - I.E. `Watering Down` the Importance of Professional Electricians - I would be interested in other Members Opinions about that point.


Regards,


Chris