Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation

[chris murphy]

"Hello sambotc",

I agree with all of Your Points - The 12 Week Courses to `Make` a Gas Installer are nothing short of an Insult to Gas Engineers / Installers who have `Correctly Qualified` and have YEARS of experience !

When taking My Gas ACS Re-Assessments on a 5 Yearly Basis I have been told by the College Tutors / Assessment Invigilators about People who have come for the Short Course Training & Assessment who did not even know how to use a Manometer correctly !

These are People who have HAD TO provide a `Portfolio of Gas Work Experience` - Supervised and Signed by a Registered GasSafe Engineer at the least - in order to even be allowed to take these Gas Training and Assessment Modules !

The Portfolio as You know has to cover ALL of the Aspects that they want to take Further Training and Assessment for - and should `Show` their Experience in these Aspects.

NOT being able to use a Manometer correctly SHOULD in My Opinion show that their Portfolio is Fraudulent ! - And Immediately Disbar them from taking the Training and Assessments at the College ! - BUT this is NOT what happened - When I Queried why this was I was told - `We CANNOT state that the Portfolio is obviously Fraudulent` - `So We CANNOT disbar them from taking the Course and Assessments`.

Your comment about Boiler / Gas Appliance Service and Repair being a completely different Task to Installation - with the DEFINITE requirement for having had Electrical Training and Fault Finding Training could not be more correct - I agree entirely - and especially as You stated with Condensing Boilers [and Combi`s] - It would be almost Impossible to Identify Faults without carrying out Electrical Testing of the Circuits and Components - NOT something that should EVER be even attempted without the relevant Training.


Regards,


Chris

 

[colshaws]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

 

[chris murphy]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

"Hello colshaws",

What You described is something that I have often seen or heard about - regarding the `Misdiagnosis` of a Fault on a Boiler.

The Problem seems to be that unless they have been specifically Trained on the Particular Boiler - Mistaking the possible CAUSES of a Fault seems to be Easy to do.

Although We might think that it SHOULD be Easy to Isolate a Fault by Electrical Testing of the Components and Wiring Circuits - A Knowledge of the `Chain of Operation` within the Boiler - the Operation of which part causes another to Operate - is obviously required - a lack of knowledge of this is what often causes a Customer to have to Pay for Unnecessary Parts !

Fault Diagnosis / `Chain of Operation` CAN be Complicated to REMEMBER - Although the Boiler Installation and Servicing Instructions SHOULD Always be left with the Appliance Owner / Householder - This is OFTEN an item that cannot be found to refer to.

In the case of a British Gas Engineer this should NOT present a Problem - As I believe that they carry Notebook Type Computers and can Access ANY Installation / Servicing Instructions [?]

Also there are obviously the GOOD Engineer and the `Not so Good`.


Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

 

[chris murphy]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

"Hello sbrown2",

You are correct in what You wrote - Clients will DEFINITELY use Companies who offer Multi Trades and it will obviously be VERY Tempting for People to want to `Train Up` to be Legal / Registered in these Multi Disciplines.

BUT - Although I have a VERY High Opinion of My Own Expertise in Heating - Plumbing and Gas where I have Qualifications in all of these - I have `Learned` My Trades from an Apprentice Plumber [Including Gas Safety - Installation etc.] - Following on with Qualifications in Heating - ONC & HNC [Including some Gas Modules] and ALL of the Domestic Gas ACOPS and now the Gas ACS - These PLUS over 40 Years of experience in these Trades - NOT Trained in Multi Disciplines in perhaps 6 Months to a Year [?].

That is the Difference between a Professional Tradesman [or Woman] who has Years of experience in more than one Trade and someone who has `Learned` more than one Trade in less than a Year - Impossible in My Opinion ! - Or All of Us who have been through our Apprenticeships have wasted our Time ! - Which I do NOT Think.

I realise that My Trades are `Related Disciplines` which obviously `Go Together` and are often Taught Together - Not quite the same as perhaps Gas and Electrics or Plumbing and Electrics - regarding learning the Installation Requirements / Safety Regulations etc. of Different Trades.


What does the future hold with all of these Multi Discipline Operatives going to be launched into the Workplace ??


Regards,


Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

 

[chris murphy]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

"Hello sbrown2",

Again I agree with You - From a Customers point of view it would be great to employ someone who can Legally carry out for example Plumbing - Gas and Electrical Works.

A person who is Registered with the necessary Competent Persons Schemes to enable the Notification / Certification of their Works in all of those Trades is obviously going to be in demand - as obviously the requirement for Certificates of Works carried out have become more widely known recently.

Even though the Home Information Packs have been scrapped - Certification of Building Works plus Gas - Electrical - Plumbing and Heating ARE becoming Well Known as being required regarding House Purchases.

I am always thinking of what Time Period would be required to Train someone for example in a Plumbing Apprenticeship - where Gas and Heating Systems are now included AND - Add the requirements of Full Electrical Training - All that is included in an Electrical Apprenticeship ??

After all I cannot imagine that there are Large Sections of what is learned during an Electrical Apprenticeship that could be correctly Discarded as `Not Necessary` - I would be sure that ALL that is Taught is Necessary.

Would there be People prepared to enter into perhaps a 6 Year [?] Apprenticeship - What would be available to Older People wanting to take this route - Only the `Fast Track` Method where it is Impossible to `Become` an Electrician / Gas Installer / Plumber with the Necessary Knowledge in these Trades in a Short Time !

What would the Customer be getting when using the Services of a Multi `Trades` Person from that route of Training ??

Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

 

[sambotc]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

 

[sbrown2]

I will say I am/was rubbish in properties but I work with builder who's reputaton is in this trade. He may have less qualifications but he knows his stuff and together we can work through all of the competencies. In the domestics he wins, I'd like to think in the commercial and industrial I'd have a chance!!!!

 

[chris murphy]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

"Hello sambotc",

What You wrote about Floorboards being smashed to pieces after a Plumber or Electrician [or Heating Engineer] is one of My `Pet Hates` - When I take up Floorboards I am sure that a Carpenter could not make a better job of them - including when I take up Tongue & Groove Floorboards - I know how to do it correctly and I have the correct Tools.

What particularly irritates Me about damaged Floorboards taken up by a Plumber - Heating Engineer - Electrician is that when We have been in these Trades for a while We will have taken up so many Floorboards that We should be EXPERTS at it !

People who I have carried out Work for remember Me for the `High Standard` of My Workmanship but fairly recently the main source of My Work came to an end - so I may be Competing for Contracts with both Good Professional Tradesmen AND People who have much less Training / Knowledge / Skill / Lower Ethics / and a much Lower Standard of Work.

I used to receive probably 80% of My Work from one Building Contractor - quite a lot was in Refurbishment Contracts for Housing Associations / Estate Management Companies but some was in High Quality Houses and Appartments Refurbishment.

I installed My Heating Systems and Plumbing to an equally `High Standard` in ANY of these types of properties - as My method of working does NOT change to suit Jobs of so called `Lesser Worth` - I mean by this that I have only ONE Standard of My Work - A `High Standard` - Lowering My quality of Work when doing a Housing Association Flat for example does not even enter My mind.

I pay as much attention to the taking up of Floorboards - Drilling of Holes - Neat Clipping of Pipes - Pipe Insulation etc. as I do to actually Installing the Heating Appliances - Radiators - Pipework - Tanks - Cylinders - Sanitary Ware - Soil and Waste etc.

I know that this is NOT the attitude of a LOT of `Tradesmen` and with Fast Track Courses and Competent Persons Scheme Registration combined I can see the `Throw it In` attitude persisting and probably Increasing !


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

"Hello sbrown2",

When I referred to the Length of Training for a `Combined Apprenticeship` of for example Plumbing [including Gas and some Heating] and Electrics as perhaps being 6 Years I was Guessing that this would be the average Time Period that would be required for the `Average` Apprentice to be able to Learn what would be required [?] - In the Process / Timescale of an Apprenticeship.

I know what You mean by the `Ability to demonstrate Competence` - and I know that I could have condensed My Plumbing Apprenticeship into about 6 - 9 Months of Full Time College / Site Work experience IF that had been available at that Time.

That was not available - and it is still NOT an Option as far as I know - in any Trade [?]

Obviously if you look at the Cost of Courses that only last perhaps a Week and then calculate what 6 - 9 Months of Training such as that would cost it would be Prohibitive for most People - Even if you Halved those figures - still `Too Expensive` for most - Hence what I described has NO Demand.

BUT - what I describe is NOT the same as the current `Fast Track` Courses that are advertised - in terms of what would be Learned - although some will enable a Person to Register with a Competent Persons Scheme and then Compete with Tradesmen who have City & Guilds etc. and Years of Experience / further Training and Assessments.


Chris

 

[Chr!s]

Any Gas/plumber that have gone through the NVQ level 3 Gas or Plumbing will have been taught the electrical side(installation/Fault Finding, unfortunately like the Electrical NVQ level 3 is very easy to pass without having a full understanding.

Also like Electrics, Gas registration was easy to gain, the old ACOP's and the the ACS allowed anyone to gain registration pretty much. So a little like the 17th, the core gas safety CCN1 was easy to acquire with little knowledge.

Fortunately the gas industry has tightened level of entry, though as i said earlier the NVQ3 is no guarantee to ensuring a competent Gas/Plumbing engineer, like the Electrical NVQ3 they are pretty easy to pass and both are limited to the scope they cover. Though at least we wont be having bus drivers just being able to do a short course and becoming a Gas or Electrical Installer without having to do a course requires a higher level of understanding.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Chris",

The problem with ACOPS and ACS as I personally see it is that `Open Book` reference was / is allowed in the Assessments.

I feel that this should NOT be allowed - That would make the Gas ACS FAR from easy to pass - the Amount of knowledge required for CCN1 is EXTENSIVE - IF the Reference Books were NOT allowed during the Assessments.

I do realise that there would have to be some Reference Tables - as there are Calculations which rely on these Tables for Figures - But provide ONLY those Tables.

I agree with Your points about ACOPS & ACS being Easy to obtain - I feel that I could Pass ANY Exam / Assessment - On ANY Subject - IF I could have ALL of the necessary Reference Books to FIND the Answers during the Exam / Assessment !

As You stated the Entry Criteria for taking Gas ACS Courses and Assessments has been `tightened up` - But unfortunately this is still being Circumvented by the Unscrupulous People amongst Us - People now supposedly have to PROVE that they have either previously Worked with Gas or that they are currently in Training on Gas.

To do the latter they have to produce a Portfolio of Works carried out under the Supervision of - at least a GasSafe Registered Gas Installer - NOT necessarily a Company - I have seen Personally People attending the Training Courses at the College where I do My Re-Assessments who I was told by the Course Tutors `Did not have a Clue` about ANYTHING that was showing in their Portfolio - It was Pure Fraud !

WHY a GasSafe Registered Person would enter into putting their Name / Registration Number onto a Fraudulent `Portfolio` is anyone`s guess - I feel that there should be Repercussions on the GasSafe Registered People who do this.

I felt that the College should have refused to allow these People to continue with the Courses & Assessments when it is found out that they `Have no Idea` about Anything relating to Gas Work / Safety - BUT - this was NOT the approach of the College - `We have to accept that the Portfolio is Genuine` - `And allow them onto the Courses` was the comment that I got from the Tutors.


Chris

 

[fetamy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

 

[chris murphy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

"Hello fetamy",


I hope that You know that ONLY a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer can LEGALLY Work on a Gas Boiler - Installation - Maintenance OR Repairs.

Legal Competence can ONLY be Verified by a Person having PASSED the Current Gas ACS Assessments / Exams - AND by being Registered with ONLY Gas Safe.

NO-ONE Else could EVER be `Approved` as LEGAL to Work on Boilers or other Gas Appliances - As they would be `Exposed` in MINUTES of Technical Questioning about Gas / Gas Appliances as NOT having the `Necessary Knowledge` to be deemed `Competent` to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances.


Please do NOT allow anyone other than a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer work on any of your Gas Appliances - And Please do NOT recommend that anyone You know allows their Gas Appliances to be Worked on by `Non Registered Persons`.


Chris - Registered Gas Engineer

 

[Specialist]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

 

[chris murphy]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

"Hello Specialist",


Thanks for your positive comments.

All too often People who are not Gas Engineers / Gas Installers / Heating Engineers decry the Legalities of the Requirement that ONLY Gas Safe Registered Engineers / Installers Work on Gas Appliances - these People TRY to state that it is NOT a Legal Requirement to be Gas Safe Registered - JUST to be `Competent` to Work on Gas / Gas Appliances.

What they don`t seem to realise is that a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer could Expose the Non Registered Person as NOT having the necessary Technical Knowledge in Minutes - just by Asking a Few Technical Questions.

This is a simple example - imagine how easily the Non Registered Person would be Exposed as NOT being `Competent` during a Court Case - By being asked Questions formulated by a Gas Safe Inspector / Technical Expert - Questions that ONLY someone who had been Trained and Assessed on the subjects could possibly Answer.

In those circumstances the Non Registered Person would be Humiliated by their Lack of Technical Knowledge !


That shows how ridiculous it is for anyone to suggest that a Non Registered Person who `Knows a bit about Gas` could Legally Work on Gas / Gas Appliances - because they `Could be Competent` !


Obviously this might not apply to a Person who had been Gas Safe Registered but had allowed their Gas Safe Registration to Lapse - depending on how recently that had happened - I mention this only because someone might state that a previously Gas Safe Registered Person should be able to prove Competence - although they would still be `Working Illegally`.

Even Engineers / Installers who are Gas Safe Registered by a Company that they work for are NOT Legally Allowed to carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances on their OWN Behalf - Unless they are separately Registered with Gas Safe - This is `Not Allowed` by some Companies - For example British Gas - British Gas Engineers who carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances as `Private Work` are Working Illegally.

Not only is that Illegal - But it is against the Terms of their Contract with British Gas.


The `Working Illegally` situation applies to ALL `Private Work` carried out by ALL Gas Engineers / Installers who are ONLY Gas Safe Registered via the Company that they work for.


I am mentioning this ONLY to provide the `Legal Position` of that situation.



Thanks Again for your reply.


Chris

 

[Specialist]

Your welcome Chris, I was the "Victim" shall we say of what appears to have been an unregistered Gas installer (Read also totally incompetent). A house that I was living in had a new meter installed, when the Meter installer did a pressure test on the system he found that there was a leak on the system so turned off the supply & told me to call a Gas fitter. Luckily a good friend of mine was is fully qualified & as it was at the time Corgi registered installer, he came straight over & we got down to looking for the Fault, 1st we found was on the heating boiler & was actually just a small leak because a joint had'nt been sealed properly. This though was nothing to the real fault, we found that the gas pipe for the Gas cooker had been run in the cavity wall & there were 2 joints that had actually never been soldered (Obviously no tests were done) & the cavity was filling with Gas, as they were ex Local authority & the cavity extended from 1 end of the row to the other the whole lot could have gone up. With all of us in it.

 

[johnboy6083]

close call there mate.