Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation

[ackbarthestar]

Good morning chaps and chappesses,
I've been called out on several occasions recently to either sort out electrical faults or install electrical components in Gas heating CH systems.
As an Electrician I'm not unhappy with this since it provides me with an extra source of work but what concerns me are
1/ Why cannot Gas fitters do this work?
2/ Why aren't Gas fitters trained to do the necessary electrical work associated with their own trade?
3/ Why Gas fitters will not attempt to do Electrical work associated with their associated trade because of their perceived fear of breaching the new Part P rules?
4/ Why this demarcation has not been sorted out?

It is leading to a fragmented industry where the new Gas fitters will only do installations and will not bother to do any fault finding, for other reasons also, but primarily that they are weary about fault finding electrical problems associated with the faults.
The more experienced gas fitters who are able to fault find electrical problems associated with CH systems are now retiring out of the trade which makes them as rare as rock horse doo doos.
:6:
It used to be that Gas fitters had to do a specific electrical module, Essential Electrics, as part of their basic training to be registered for CORGI, ACOPs , but then got dropped when CORGI and then GAS SAFE took control of the registration process.

Any thoughts?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Long may it continue that partly trained gas plumbers in electrics, do not interfere in electrical work.

I won't tell them how to plumb in a gas boiler or fault find a gas problem.

 

[kung]

I think also gas fitters earn enough money without getting involved in the electrical side so most dont bother to learn esp since as you say the introduction of part p.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Malcolm,
Thanks for your reply
but because of the nature of the domestic CH/HW systems, the Gas,Water and Electrics are so interrelated that its complete madness to be regarded as a Gas fitter/plumber competent to fit and fault find boilers when they don't or won't attempt to work on the electrical control side.
Would you expect a car mechanic not to be able to sort out the electrical problems when vehicle won't start?

 

[ackbarthestar]

Kung,
Agreed, An installer can earn a packet without going to the trouble of the black art of fault finding, but that makes for a cowboy industry where if your boiler goes wrong you will get:
'Sorry mate, the fault is related to the recognized faults with that boiler, we'll replace it with this one'.
The recognized faults, of course, are what in the automotive industry would be regarded as a recall notice.

 

[kung]

Couldnt we use the same argument when we do a rewire that if were working on the electrical side of a ch system we should get trained on gas to work on that as well ? if they want to work on electrics they can as long as they comply with the regs and part p ! but most cant be bothered.

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest I could repair cars now, as most of them use diagnostic tools via a laptop. In fact in the good old days you would have had the mechanic and the Auto sparks.

I think to be honest that in the 70/80/s when CH became the norm, a monkey drunk on cider had a fair chance of wiring up a CH system, so I had no doubt so would a gas plumber.

The systems have developed since and I think that even the most basic is perhaps beyond quite a few gas plumbers.

 

[kung]

My brother in law is a gas fault engineer with british gas and has worked there for 40yrs and he cant be bothered as he makes enough money just working on gas same with his mates who are gas fitters also plus most gas fitters know sparks who they get to do the electrical side ! less hassle for them.

 

[kung]

I do agree though if you have a boiler fault you call a gas installer and some charge a call out regardless only to be told its on the electrical side sorry mate you need a spark ! dont make sense i know m8.

 

[kung]

Few years back my aunt had a gas fitter called out because he boiler stopped working so £££££ later he left and returned a week later with a new control pcb and fitted it ! it cost her £££££££££££££££££££££££££ big money anyway i took the old control pcb home and tested it faultfinding it to a 24p cap ! if only they had some basic electronic knowledge as well !

 

[ackbarthestar]

Funny I should bring this subject up, but I popped round to a friends this morning after I had opened this thread and had a peep at the latest Which magazine where I found a report on Boiler service repairs.
Not particularly good news.
All the call out charges were between £77-£150
A basic service with a combined simple electrical fault such as a disconnected wire where only 2 out 6 independent 'engineers' were able to rectify the fault and do a proper service, one had suggested that the boiler need replacing - duh ! :dunce:
The major players didn't fair that well either.
One engineer had to be called out 3 times, for which a service charge was added each time.
I wonder whether sniffing all that gas over a period of time affects the mentality and the will to live with some of these guys?
At least when a sparkie gets it wrong he/she is 'shocked' into action, not put to sleep !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of my mates is a plumber, and I ocasionally I work with him.
I often comment on the fact that sometimes his work leaks (not gas obviously), but mine doesn't.

 

[chris murphy]

Good morning chaps and chappesses,
I've been called out on several occasions recently to either sort out electrical faults or install electrical components in Gas heating CH systems.
As an Electrician I'm not unhappy with this since it provides me with an extra source of work but what concerns me are
1/ Why cannot Gas fitters do this work?
2/ Why aren't Gas fitters trained to do the necessary electrical work associated with their own trade?
3/ Why Gas fitters will not attempt to do Electrical work associated with their associated trade because of their perceived fear of breaching the new Part P rules?
4/ Why this demarcation has not been sorted out?

It is leading to a fragmented industry where the new Gas fitters will only do installations and will not bother to do any fault finding, for other reasons also, but primarily that they are weary about fault finding electrical problems associated with the faults.
The more experienced gas fitters who are able to fault find electrical problems associated with CH systems are now retiring out of the trade which makes them as rare as rock horse doo doos.
:6:
It used to be that Gas fitters had to do a specific electrical module, Essential Electrics, as part of their basic training to be registered for CORGI, ACOPs , but then got dropped when CORGI and then GAS SAFE took control of the registration process.

Any thoughts?

"Hello ackbarthestar",

There IS a Method of Heating Engineers `Qualifying` and Registering on an Electrical Competent Persons Scheme - This involves them taking an Electrical - `Essential Electrics` Course and passing the Assessments - PRIOR to then being eligible to take a `Defined Scope` Part P Electrical Course and then Passing the Assessment / Exam at the end of the Course.

This would `Qualify` them to Part P - Level B - They would then be Eligible to Join an Electrical Competent Persons Scheme - which then enables a Heating Engineer / Plumber to carry out Works ASSOCIATED with Their Trade ONLY - NOT House Rewires etc. - JUST Works that can be Justified as related to Their Heating Systems etc.

Obviously as the Electrical Experts on here will know Learning enough about Electrical Systems and Work in a VERY Short period that these Course last - Perhaps a Total of 3 Weeks - would be quite a Task ! - AND Very Expensive - Although many Heating Engineers have taken this route to be able to Legally carry out their own Heating System Wiring.


Chris - Heating - Plumbing & Gas Installer

 

[ackbarthestar]

I agree with you, there are many Gas fitters who recognize the necessity to get 'qualified' so they can continue to do the job they have, or should have, been trained for.
I think the point i was making at the end was, Gas training had a compulsory module called 'essential electrics' where gas fitters had to do a certain amount of electrical installation and fault finding associated with their trade before they were let loose with boiler maintenance.

 

[chris murphy]

I agree with you, there are many Gas fitters who recognize the necessity to get 'qualified' so they can continue to do the job they have, or should have, been trained for.
I think the point i was making at the end was, Gas training had a compulsory module called 'essential electrics' where gas fitters had to do a certain amount of electrical installation and fault finding associated with their trade before they were let loose with boiler maintenance.

"Hello ackbarthestar,

I am a Heating Engineer / Registered Gas Installer - As well as the Gas Training that I did in My Plumbing City & Guilds [MANY Years ago] - I have completed ALL of the Domestic Gas Assessments that BOTH the `Old` ACOPS and the ACS [Now] have to Offer.

Although I have not needed Training in Gas Utilisation / Safety for many Years because I have ENSURED that I kept fully Up to Date with everything - I DID take the ACOP [Years ago] `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services - These were NOT Compulsory - But I felt that I should have these `Qualifications` - JUST in order to work Safely on Gas Appliances - As far as I was concerned.

There have NEVER been Compulsory Electrical Courses relating to Gas Qualifications - Although the Colleges and other Training / Assessment Providers DID Try to Influence Us with the statement that `We would NOT be SAFE to work on Gas Appliances that were `Electrically Live` without the Basics of Electrical Knowledge` - Which I found to be a Correct statement - Hence I did take the ACOPS `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical installation for Mechanical Services`.


I have also taken the Part P Defined Scope - Level B - As I thought at one point that I would like to carry out My own Heating System Wiring - I then decided that because of the requirements of My Clients to have ALL of the Electrical Works Certified by ONE Electrical Contractor - I do NOT want to wire My own Heating Systems - And have used correctly Qualified / Registered Electricians ONLY [Often supplied by the Builder] since about 2004.


Chris

 

[ackbarthestar]

"Hello ackbarthestar,

I am a Heating Engineer / Registered Gas Installer - As well as the Gas Training that I did in My Plumbing City & Guilds [MANY Years ago] - I have completed ALL of the Domestic Gas Assessments that BOTH the `Old` ACOPS and the ACS [Now] have to Offer.

Although I have not needed Training in Gas Utilisation / Safety for many Years because I have ENSURED that I kept fully Up to Date with everything - I DID take the ACOP [Years ago] `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services - These were NOT Compulsory - But I felt that I should have these `Qualifications` - JUST in order to work Safely on Gas Appliances - As far as I was concerned.

There have NEVER been Compulsory Electrical Courses relating to Gas Qualifications - Although the Colleges and other Training / Assessment Providers DID Try to Influence Us with the statement that `We would NOT be SAFE to work on Gas Appliances that were `Electrically Live` without the Basics of Electrical Knowledge` - Which I found to be a Correct statement - Hence I did take the ACOPS `Essential Electrics` and `Electrical installation for Mechanical Services`.


I have also taken the Part P Defined Scope - Level B - As I thought at one point that I would like to carry out My own Heating System Wiring - I then decided that because of the requirements of My Clients to have ALL of the Electrical Works Certified by ONE Electrical Contractor - I do NOT want to wire My own Heating Systems - And have used correctly Qualified / Registered Electricians ONLY [Often supplied by the Builder] since about 2004.


Chris

Ok, Before we kick off .........

you have probably followed your conscience and done what is needed Now what are you trying to say?

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello ackbarthestar",

I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?

Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.


What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -

`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?


Chris

 

[ackbarthestar]

"Hello ackbarthestar",

I am surprised at your comment - `Ok, Before we kick off .........` what do You mean by that ?

Apart from stating that Electrical Training for Gas Engineers / Fitters has never been compulsory - and giving details of My own experience to show that I would know this - I am in agreement with You that Electrical Training and Assessment relating to Gas Appliances should be a part of the Training for Gas Installers / Heating Engineers - And because I agree with what you stated I wrote about how I took the various Electrical Training Courses to try to be as Safe with Electrics as I could be.


What was it about My previous Message to You that irritated You ?? - You asked -

`Now what are you trying to say?` - I thought that My Message was written clearly ?


Chris

Chris,

No offense mean't

Don't British Gas trainees have to do the electrical modules as part of their gas and heating qualification?

Also, as I recall, C&G heating and ventilation/ Gas quals include sections on safe isolation, earthing and bonding, heating controls.

 

[sambotc]

I trained as a gas engineer through an apprenticeship 12 years ago when I left school. At that time the ACS had just replaced ACOPS and there was no requirement to cover the electrical side. I think the gas industry has become a bit of a mess to be fair. The recent increase in numbers and 12 week training courses has led to the knowledge of your average gas/heating engineer being far less than it was years ago. From reading this forum I get the feeling the situation is no better in the electrical trade. To top it off, I have recently passed my 17th edition through a fast track college! This college is linked to the company I work for so due to our line of work taking a different avenue (in the shape of solar P.V and renewables) the course was offered to me.

I had already passed the part P course and my knowledge of electrical was reasonable after spending many hours at home learning the fundamentals off my own back.

I got the distinct feeling of being rail roaded into passing the exam, and although I passed, I am on here most nights reading up to extend my knowledge, as I don't feel like the course for 17th was adequate.

The problem in my opinion is down to the colleges handing out certificates here, there and everywhere, the tradesmen have been diluted with numb nuts who hold the relevant tickets but lack some of the more basic skills such as common sense etc. So if they can't learn their own trade, what chance have they got of being competent in another trade at the same time?

Also you mention service engineers, this is another area where the gas qualifications have missed the mark. Hanging a boiler on the wall and running some pipes to it is a different ball game to opening the case and trying to find a fault, the later should be a separate trade with different requirements such as basic electrical skills. as you all know, new condensing boilers require a lot of electrical components to operate, but if you carry out an ACS exam on boilers, you will not get asked a single question about the electrical operation of the boiler, where's the sense in that?

 

[chris murphy]

Chris,

No offense mean't

Don't British Gas trainees have to do the electrical modules as part of their gas and heating qualification?

Also, as I recall, C&G heating and ventilation/ Gas quals include sections on safe isolation, earthing and bonding, heating controls.

"Hello ackbarthestar",

Thanks for your Reply.

It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.


I recently spoke to a British Gas Engineer who was Fitting a Meter for My Neighbour - He was a Young Man of about 24 - His next Job was an Electrical one - After that a Boiler Breakdown - another Meter install and then another Electrical Job - I wish that I had asked what kind of `Electrical Jobs` He was going to be doing but I did not.

His example of being Trained and Qualified for both Gas and Electrical works MAY be the `Way of the Future` - But I cannot imagine that the Electrical Profession would necessarily Welcome that ??

I mentioned previously that Electrical Training within other Trades Apprenticeships would be a GOOD Thing - and what You suggested SHOULD be the case when Gas Fitters / Engineers and Plumbing and Heating Engineers are doing their Apprenticeships - as I feel sure that the Apprenticeships could be structured to include Electrical Training - as they last for a period of Years this could definitely include at least Basic Electrical Safety / Isolation and Installation / Earthing etc.

Your example of Heating and Ventilation City & Guilds probably does include Electrical Training as that particular Trade - which is NOT the same as `Wet Heating` - Does include working with Air Handling Units - Large Electrical Fans - Electrical Controls on the Heating Coil Units which are connected to a Usually Industrial / Commercial Heating System.

Because of these points - and other reasons - I would expect that particular City & Guilds to include quite a lot of Electrical Training.

I do hope that what You suggested IS put in place - with EVERY Trade that deals with any Electrical Process / Appliance with Electrical Controls etc. having Electrical Training within the Apprenticeship Training.

I would advocate this in ALL Training for Work that involves coming into contact with Electrical Systems / Appliances - BUT with Shorter Course Training it would obviously be harder to Incorporate this [ Substantial ?] amount of Time into the Courses - without Increasing the Costs Substantially.

ALSO - I wonder IF all of Your `Colleagues` / Members on here would necessarily Agree with this approach ?? - It could be said that this would reflect in a Detrimental Way on the Electrical Profession - ?? - I.E. `Watering Down` the Importance of Professional Electricians - I would be interested in other Members Opinions about that point.


Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello sambotc",

I agree with all of Your Points - The 12 Week Courses to `Make` a Gas Installer are nothing short of an Insult to Gas Engineers / Installers who have `Correctly Qualified` and have YEARS of experience !

When taking My Gas ACS Re-Assessments on a 5 Yearly Basis I have been told by the College Tutors / Assessment Invigilators about People who have come for the Short Course Training & Assessment who did not even know how to use a Manometer correctly !

These are People who have HAD TO provide a `Portfolio of Gas Work Experience` - Supervised and Signed by a Registered GasSafe Engineer at the least - in order to even be allowed to take these Gas Training and Assessment Modules !

The Portfolio as You know has to cover ALL of the Aspects that they want to take Further Training and Assessment for - and should `Show` their Experience in these Aspects.

NOT being able to use a Manometer correctly SHOULD in My Opinion show that their Portfolio is Fraudulent ! - And Immediately Disbar them from taking the Training and Assessments at the College ! - BUT this is NOT what happened - When I Queried why this was I was told - `We CANNOT state that the Portfolio is obviously Fraudulent` - `So We CANNOT disbar them from taking the Course and Assessments`.

Your comment about Boiler / Gas Appliance Service and Repair being a completely different Task to Installation - with the DEFINITE requirement for having had Electrical Training and Fault Finding Training could not be more correct - I agree entirely - and especially as You stated with Condensing Boilers [and Combi`s] - It would be almost Impossible to Identify Faults without carrying out Electrical Testing of the Circuits and Components - NOT something that should EVER be even attempted without the relevant Training.


Regards,


Chris

 

[colshaws]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

 

[chris murphy]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

"Hello colshaws",

What You described is something that I have often seen or heard about - regarding the `Misdiagnosis` of a Fault on a Boiler.

The Problem seems to be that unless they have been specifically Trained on the Particular Boiler - Mistaking the possible CAUSES of a Fault seems to be Easy to do.

Although We might think that it SHOULD be Easy to Isolate a Fault by Electrical Testing of the Components and Wiring Circuits - A Knowledge of the `Chain of Operation` within the Boiler - the Operation of which part causes another to Operate - is obviously required - a lack of knowledge of this is what often causes a Customer to have to Pay for Unnecessary Parts !

Fault Diagnosis / `Chain of Operation` CAN be Complicated to REMEMBER - Although the Boiler Installation and Servicing Instructions SHOULD Always be left with the Appliance Owner / Householder - This is OFTEN an item that cannot be found to refer to.

In the case of a British Gas Engineer this should NOT present a Problem - As I believe that they carry Notebook Type Computers and can Access ANY Installation / Servicing Instructions [?]

Also there are obviously the GOOD Engineer and the `Not so Good`.


Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

 

[chris murphy]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

"Hello sbrown2",

You are correct in what You wrote - Clients will DEFINITELY use Companies who offer Multi Trades and it will obviously be VERY Tempting for People to want to `Train Up` to be Legal / Registered in these Multi Disciplines.

BUT - Although I have a VERY High Opinion of My Own Expertise in Heating - Plumbing and Gas where I have Qualifications in all of these - I have `Learned` My Trades from an Apprentice Plumber [Including Gas Safety - Installation etc.] - Following on with Qualifications in Heating - ONC & HNC [Including some Gas Modules] and ALL of the Domestic Gas ACOPS and now the Gas ACS - These PLUS over 40 Years of experience in these Trades - NOT Trained in Multi Disciplines in perhaps 6 Months to a Year [?].

That is the Difference between a Professional Tradesman [or Woman] who has Years of experience in more than one Trade and someone who has `Learned` more than one Trade in less than a Year - Impossible in My Opinion ! - Or All of Us who have been through our Apprenticeships have wasted our Time ! - Which I do NOT Think.

I realise that My Trades are `Related Disciplines` which obviously `Go Together` and are often Taught Together - Not quite the same as perhaps Gas and Electrics or Plumbing and Electrics - regarding learning the Installation Requirements / Safety Regulations etc. of Different Trades.


What does the future hold with all of these Multi Discipline Operatives going to be launched into the Workplace ??


Regards,


Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

 

[chris murphy]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

"Hello sbrown2",

Again I agree with You - From a Customers point of view it would be great to employ someone who can Legally carry out for example Plumbing - Gas and Electrical Works.

A person who is Registered with the necessary Competent Persons Schemes to enable the Notification / Certification of their Works in all of those Trades is obviously going to be in demand - as obviously the requirement for Certificates of Works carried out have become more widely known recently.

Even though the Home Information Packs have been scrapped - Certification of Building Works plus Gas - Electrical - Plumbing and Heating ARE becoming Well Known as being required regarding House Purchases.

I am always thinking of what Time Period would be required to Train someone for example in a Plumbing Apprenticeship - where Gas and Heating Systems are now included AND - Add the requirements of Full Electrical Training - All that is included in an Electrical Apprenticeship ??

After all I cannot imagine that there are Large Sections of what is learned during an Electrical Apprenticeship that could be correctly Discarded as `Not Necessary` - I would be sure that ALL that is Taught is Necessary.

Would there be People prepared to enter into perhaps a 6 Year [?] Apprenticeship - What would be available to Older People wanting to take this route - Only the `Fast Track` Method where it is Impossible to `Become` an Electrician / Gas Installer / Plumber with the Necessary Knowledge in these Trades in a Short Time !

What would the Customer be getting when using the Services of a Multi `Trades` Person from that route of Training ??

Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

 

[sambotc]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

 

[sbrown2]

I will say I am/was rubbish in properties but I work with builder who's reputaton is in this trade. He may have less qualifications but he knows his stuff and together we can work through all of the competencies. In the domestics he wins, I'd like to think in the commercial and industrial I'd have a chance!!!!

 

[chris murphy]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

"Hello sambotc",

What You wrote about Floorboards being smashed to pieces after a Plumber or Electrician [or Heating Engineer] is one of My `Pet Hates` - When I take up Floorboards I am sure that a Carpenter could not make a better job of them - including when I take up Tongue & Groove Floorboards - I know how to do it correctly and I have the correct Tools.

What particularly irritates Me about damaged Floorboards taken up by a Plumber - Heating Engineer - Electrician is that when We have been in these Trades for a while We will have taken up so many Floorboards that We should be EXPERTS at it !

People who I have carried out Work for remember Me for the `High Standard` of My Workmanship but fairly recently the main source of My Work came to an end - so I may be Competing for Contracts with both Good Professional Tradesmen AND People who have much less Training / Knowledge / Skill / Lower Ethics / and a much Lower Standard of Work.

I used to receive probably 80% of My Work from one Building Contractor - quite a lot was in Refurbishment Contracts for Housing Associations / Estate Management Companies but some was in High Quality Houses and Appartments Refurbishment.

I installed My Heating Systems and Plumbing to an equally `High Standard` in ANY of these types of properties - as My method of working does NOT change to suit Jobs of so called `Lesser Worth` - I mean by this that I have only ONE Standard of My Work - A `High Standard` - Lowering My quality of Work when doing a Housing Association Flat for example does not even enter My mind.

I pay as much attention to the taking up of Floorboards - Drilling of Holes - Neat Clipping of Pipes - Pipe Insulation etc. as I do to actually Installing the Heating Appliances - Radiators - Pipework - Tanks - Cylinders - Sanitary Ware - Soil and Waste etc.

I know that this is NOT the attitude of a LOT of `Tradesmen` and with Fast Track Courses and Competent Persons Scheme Registration combined I can see the `Throw it In` attitude persisting and probably Increasing !


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

"Hello sbrown2",

When I referred to the Length of Training for a `Combined Apprenticeship` of for example Plumbing [including Gas and some Heating] and Electrics as perhaps being 6 Years I was Guessing that this would be the average Time Period that would be required for the `Average` Apprentice to be able to Learn what would be required [?] - In the Process / Timescale of an Apprenticeship.

I know what You mean by the `Ability to demonstrate Competence` - and I know that I could have condensed My Plumbing Apprenticeship into about 6 - 9 Months of Full Time College / Site Work experience IF that had been available at that Time.

That was not available - and it is still NOT an Option as far as I know - in any Trade [?]

Obviously if you look at the Cost of Courses that only last perhaps a Week and then calculate what 6 - 9 Months of Training such as that would cost it would be Prohibitive for most People - Even if you Halved those figures - still `Too Expensive` for most - Hence what I described has NO Demand.

BUT - what I describe is NOT the same as the current `Fast Track` Courses that are advertised - in terms of what would be Learned - although some will enable a Person to Register with a Competent Persons Scheme and then Compete with Tradesmen who have City & Guilds etc. and Years of Experience / further Training and Assessments.


Chris

 

[Chr!s]

Any Gas/plumber that have gone through the NVQ level 3 Gas or Plumbing will have been taught the electrical side(installation/Fault Finding, unfortunately like the Electrical NVQ level 3 is very easy to pass without having a full understanding.

Also like Electrics, Gas registration was easy to gain, the old ACOP's and the the ACS allowed anyone to gain registration pretty much. So a little like the 17th, the core gas safety CCN1 was easy to acquire with little knowledge.

Fortunately the gas industry has tightened level of entry, though as i said earlier the NVQ3 is no guarantee to ensuring a competent Gas/Plumbing engineer, like the Electrical NVQ3 they are pretty easy to pass and both are limited to the scope they cover. Though at least we wont be having bus drivers just being able to do a short course and becoming a Gas or Electrical Installer without having to do a course requires a higher level of understanding.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Chris",

The problem with ACOPS and ACS as I personally see it is that `Open Book` reference was / is allowed in the Assessments.

I feel that this should NOT be allowed - That would make the Gas ACS FAR from easy to pass - the Amount of knowledge required for CCN1 is EXTENSIVE - IF the Reference Books were NOT allowed during the Assessments.

I do realise that there would have to be some Reference Tables - as there are Calculations which rely on these Tables for Figures - But provide ONLY those Tables.

I agree with Your points about ACOPS & ACS being Easy to obtain - I feel that I could Pass ANY Exam / Assessment - On ANY Subject - IF I could have ALL of the necessary Reference Books to FIND the Answers during the Exam / Assessment !

As You stated the Entry Criteria for taking Gas ACS Courses and Assessments has been `tightened up` - But unfortunately this is still being Circumvented by the Unscrupulous People amongst Us - People now supposedly have to PROVE that they have either previously Worked with Gas or that they are currently in Training on Gas.

To do the latter they have to produce a Portfolio of Works carried out under the Supervision of - at least a GasSafe Registered Gas Installer - NOT necessarily a Company - I have seen Personally People attending the Training Courses at the College where I do My Re-Assessments who I was told by the Course Tutors `Did not have a Clue` about ANYTHING that was showing in their Portfolio - It was Pure Fraud !

WHY a GasSafe Registered Person would enter into putting their Name / Registration Number onto a Fraudulent `Portfolio` is anyone`s guess - I feel that there should be Repercussions on the GasSafe Registered People who do this.

I felt that the College should have refused to allow these People to continue with the Courses & Assessments when it is found out that they `Have no Idea` about Anything relating to Gas Work / Safety - BUT - this was NOT the approach of the College - `We have to accept that the Portfolio is Genuine` - `And allow them onto the Courses` was the comment that I got from the Tutors.


Chris

 

[fetamy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

 

[chris murphy]

Boiler problems some time hectic , but if you know some one really have knowledge than you do not need to spent money for some hiring stuff. I had some issue with my boiler last month. But solved now.

"Hello fetamy",


I hope that You know that ONLY a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer can LEGALLY Work on a Gas Boiler - Installation - Maintenance OR Repairs.

Legal Competence can ONLY be Verified by a Person having PASSED the Current Gas ACS Assessments / Exams - AND by being Registered with ONLY Gas Safe.

NO-ONE Else could EVER be `Approved` as LEGAL to Work on Boilers or other Gas Appliances - As they would be `Exposed` in MINUTES of Technical Questioning about Gas / Gas Appliances as NOT having the `Necessary Knowledge` to be deemed `Competent` to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances.


Please do NOT allow anyone other than a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Installer work on any of your Gas Appliances - And Please do NOT recommend that anyone You know allows their Gas Appliances to be Worked on by `Non Registered Persons`.


Chris - Registered Gas Engineer

 

[Specialist]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

 

[chris murphy]

Well said Chris: I know times are hard & we all need to save cash but to work on a Gas boiler without the Training to do so Safely is asking for serious trouble.

"Hello Specialist",


Thanks for your positive comments.

All too often People who are not Gas Engineers / Gas Installers / Heating Engineers decry the Legalities of the Requirement that ONLY Gas Safe Registered Engineers / Installers Work on Gas Appliances - these People TRY to state that it is NOT a Legal Requirement to be Gas Safe Registered - JUST to be `Competent` to Work on Gas / Gas Appliances.

What they don`t seem to realise is that a Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer could Expose the Non Registered Person as NOT having the necessary Technical Knowledge in Minutes - just by Asking a Few Technical Questions.

This is a simple example - imagine how easily the Non Registered Person would be Exposed as NOT being `Competent` during a Court Case - By being asked Questions formulated by a Gas Safe Inspector / Technical Expert - Questions that ONLY someone who had been Trained and Assessed on the subjects could possibly Answer.

In those circumstances the Non Registered Person would be Humiliated by their Lack of Technical Knowledge !


That shows how ridiculous it is for anyone to suggest that a Non Registered Person who `Knows a bit about Gas` could Legally Work on Gas / Gas Appliances - because they `Could be Competent` !


Obviously this might not apply to a Person who had been Gas Safe Registered but had allowed their Gas Safe Registration to Lapse - depending on how recently that had happened - I mention this only because someone might state that a previously Gas Safe Registered Person should be able to prove Competence - although they would still be `Working Illegally`.

Even Engineers / Installers who are Gas Safe Registered by a Company that they work for are NOT Legally Allowed to carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances on their OWN Behalf - Unless they are separately Registered with Gas Safe - This is `Not Allowed` by some Companies - For example British Gas - British Gas Engineers who carry out Gas Work / Work on Gas Appliances as `Private Work` are Working Illegally.

Not only is that Illegal - But it is against the Terms of their Contract with British Gas.


The `Working Illegally` situation applies to ALL `Private Work` carried out by ALL Gas Engineers / Installers who are ONLY Gas Safe Registered via the Company that they work for.


I am mentioning this ONLY to provide the `Legal Position` of that situation.



Thanks Again for your reply.


Chris

 

[Specialist]

Your welcome Chris, I was the "Victim" shall we say of what appears to have been an unregistered Gas installer (Read also totally incompetent). A house that I was living in had a new meter installed, when the Meter installer did a pressure test on the system he found that there was a leak on the system so turned off the supply & told me to call a Gas fitter. Luckily a good friend of mine was is fully qualified & as it was at the time Corgi registered installer, he came straight over & we got down to looking for the Fault, 1st we found was on the heating boiler & was actually just a small leak because a joint had'nt been sealed properly. This though was nothing to the real fault, we found that the gas pipe for the Gas cooker had been run in the cavity wall & there were 2 joints that had actually never been soldered (Obviously no tests were done) & the cavity was filling with Gas, as they were ex Local authority & the cavity extended from 1 end of the row to the other the whole lot could have gone up. With all of us in it.

 

[johnboy6083]

close call there mate.

 

[Specialist]

Yes mate it was, unfortunately we never found out what moron did it.
But there's plenty of them about messing with Gas work, was on a site a few years ago where they had a "Gas fitter" doing a job. I was working in the kitchen when he was repairing a leaky compression joint, instead of useing thread seal he just ripped up a plastic carrier & wrapped a bit around the joint.
I don't like reporting people but I had to in this case, he was bloody lethal.

 

[chris murphy]

Your welcome Chris, I was the "Victim" shall we say of what appears to have been an unregistered Gas installer (Read also totally incompetent). A house that I was living in had a new meter installed, when the Meter installer did a pressure test on the system he found that there was a leak on the system so turned off the supply & told me to call a Gas fitter. Luckily a good friend of mine was is fully qualified & as it was at the time Corgi registered installer, he came straight over & we got down to looking for the Fault, 1st we found was on the heating boiler & was actually just a small leak because a joint had'nt been sealed properly. This though was nothing to the real fault, we found that the gas pipe for the Gas cooker had been run in the cavity wall & there were 2 joints that had actually never been soldered (Obviously no tests were done) & the cavity was filling with Gas, as they were ex Local authority & the cavity extended from 1 end of the row to the other the whole lot could have gone up. With all of us in it.

"Hello Again Specialist",


The kind of `Errors` that you wrote about are quite regularly found by either a VERY Dangerous situation occurring or by Qualified / Registered Gas Engineers / Installers when they go to a Home to carry out other Gas Work.

The FIRST thing that any Qualified Gas Engineer / Installer should do when going into any Building where they are going to do ANY `Gas Work` - which includes even a Visual Inspection of an Appliance is to carry out Tests from the Gas Meter to establish [or otherwise] that the Gas Meter and Pipework to the Appliances is NOT Leaking.

Then depending on what they are Contracted to do - The Appliances should be Checked for correct Installation and Safety of Operation.


At that point they can Notify the Client IF there is a Leak - Before they carry out ANY Work or Inspections / Servicing etc.

Otherwise they would carry out some Work or Inspections / Servicing and then `Find` that something is Leaking when they did their Gas Meter & Pipework Testing [If not done at the start] - Not knowing without Checking that it was NOT something that they had been Inspecting / Servicing.
And even then a Leak might have been caused for example by someone previously Overtightening a connection Nut - sometimes NOT easy to rectify correctly if on an Appliance !

Checking this and then having to Notify the Client that there is a Leak `On Existing Gas Pipework` AFTER they have done Work / Inspections / Servicing is NOT something that is to be recommended !


Regarding your example of the Pipework Joints that were not even Soldered - This is the reason that a Visual Inspection of ALL Joints on Gas Pipework at the point of Installation is VITAL - As the Flux that is used in the Soldering process can sometimes actually cause the Joint to `Hold` on a Test - while the Flux is in its `Paste` like form it can prevent Air / Gas from escaping as the Test Pressure is so Low - WHEN the Flux dries out GAS Leaks out !


Thanks for giving those examples of Dangerous Situations.


Chris

 

[Specialist]

No problem mate, thanks for the info.

 

[hermetic]

The mistake that you are all making in my estimation is to assume that everyone who passes some or other competency scheme is a "good engineer" and everyone who doesn't is a cowboy. I think that the schemes we have today are merely cowboy creation schemes where an unemployed window cleaner can become a certified gas fitter or electrician in 6 months or less provided they can afford it. I did an electrical apprenticeship in the late 60's early 70's plus 3 years of day release to qualify for Nat Dip in electrical engineering. I fix all electrical problems on my own gas boiler. If I have a gas problem, I call my gas safe man! or rather I did because he has now retired, so I have to find another one. You can be sure I will not be using any of the four gas safe registered cowboys who I got to "service" my boiler annually before I found him. I have the all important manual for my boiler, and I know how it should be annually serviced, with the first four guys it certainly wasn't. Being a cowboy is a state of mind which reveals a person who takes the shortest route to the maximum profit, and no amount of competency schemes will root him out. The vast majority of young supposedly qualified "tradesmen" I work with today are laughably incompetent to a man when it comes to anything other than a straightforward installation, fault finding? Forget it!! it bodes very badly for the future. The smart move seems to be to get into the training and registration "industry" QUICK!

 

[Specialist]

If you maybe read the thread again you'll see that that's not what we're saying at all. In fact what I do know is that the 2 morons I mentioned were both as it was then Corgi registered. We're all well aware that there are Cowboys out there & a lot of them. The point still stands that servicing a Gas system / Appliance should'nt be undertaken by a DIY'er no matter how competent they think they are to do a repair & as Chris pointed out: Should there be a problem & a Court case then the DIY'er would'nt have a leg to stand on.

 

[chris murphy]

The mistake that you are all making in my estimation is to assume that everyone who passes some or other competency scheme is a "good engineer" and everyone who doesn't is a cowboy. I think that the schemes we have today are merely cowboy creation schemes where an unemployed window cleaner can become a certified gas fitter or electrician in 6 months or less provided they can afford it. I did an electrical apprenticeship in the late 60's early 70's plus 3 years of day release to qualify for Nat Dip in electrical engineering. I fix all electrical problems on my own gas boiler. If I have a gas problem, I call my gas safe man! or rather I did because he has now retired, so I have to find another one. You can be sure I will not be using any of the four gas safe registered cowboys who I got to "service" my boiler annually before I found him. I have the all important manual for my boiler, and I know how it should be annually serviced, with the first four guys it certainly wasn't. Being a cowboy is a state of mind which reveals a person who takes the shortest route to the maximum profit, and no amount of competency schemes will root him out. The vast majority of young supposedly qualified "tradesmen" I work with today are laughably incompetent to a man when it comes to anything other than a straightforward installation, fault finding? Forget it!! it bodes very badly for the future. The smart move seems to be to get into the training and registration "industry" QUICK!

"Hello hermetic",

While I wholeheartedly Agree with most of your comments and I HATE the idea of People who have NO Association with Industries relating to Pipework or who have NO Technical Background being able to Purchase Training and Assessments in order to be Eligible to Register as `Gas Installers` - I wondered where I had `Been Mistaken` in something that I wrote on this subject ?


As I have written a few of the Posts on this subject - I wondered what You thought that I had written that was a `Mistake` ? - This is the comment that I refer to:


`The mistake that you are all making in my estimation is to assume that everyone who passes some or other competency scheme is a "good engineer" and everyone who doesn't is a cowboy`.


I certainly do NOT think that just `Passing` Assessments on Gas ACS makes a `Gas Engineer`.

In fact I think that the ACS should NOT be available to ANYONE who is not Training while Working for a Heating / Plumbing & Gas Company - and this should be a Company that would be Registered as a Training Provider `Partner` - Providing Training in conjunction with an Approved and Regulated Training Provider.

This would STOP the current situation where ANY Gas Safe Registered Engineer / Installer can `Verify` an Applicants Gas Work `Portfolio` - therefore enabling them to obtain the Gas Training and Assessment Places at the various Training and Assessment Providers.

I also believe that the Gas ACS should NOT be `Open Book` during the Assessments.


I am one of the Gas Engineers who HAS come from the Apprenticeship - [Plumbing] and `Continued Professional Development` in Heating and Gas Routes - plus the Defined Scope Electrical Part P Scheme.


The REASON that I keep mentioning the Gas ACS and Gas Safe Registration as being REQUIRED is because it is a LAW that ONLY those `Qualified` / `Deemed Competent` by Passing the necessary Gas ACS Assessments AND Registered with Gas Safe can LEGALLY Work on Gas Appliances / Gas Pipework etc.

BUT it is My opinion that the Gas ACS Scheme has Unleashed probably THOUSANDS of `Registered Gas Installers` who would not have anything like the Experience / Knowledge that I had when I was an Apprentice !

The Gas ACS were introduced to theoretically `Upgrade` the previous ACOPS [Approved Code of Practice] Scheme - as these were deemed to be `Even Easier` to Pass Assessment on !

Now they are viewed by the Government / Law / Training Providers as `At Least showing a Level of Competence` that requires Knowledge in order to Pass the Assessments.

While I personally would prefer that ONLY those who have completed an Apprenticeship which was either for Gas or included Gas Utilisation should be allowed to be `Registered Gas Engineers` / Legally allowed to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances - It was partly the Fact that there was a shortage of People doing Apprenticeships in Plumbing and Gas that required the `Dumbing Down` that saw the ACOPS and then the ACS being brought in as the Required Assessments for Gas Work.

Throughout My Career I have tried to Ensure that I obtained ALL of the Necessary Training and Examination / Assessments that were Associated with My Trade / Industry - `Continued Professional Development` - Too many to List here.

I view Myself as a `Consummate Professional` in Plumbing - Heating and Gas - My Career has spanned over 40 Years and I not only have the necessary Training and Qualifications / Assessments in ALL of the above Trades - but also Decades of Experience.


Chris

 

[hermetic]

Well said Chris, I take your criticism, and agrre wholeheartedly.

 

[chris murphy]

Well said Chris, I take your criticism, and agrre wholeheartedly.

"Hello hermetic",


Please don`t think that I was criticising You in any way - I was just asking you about what I wrote that made you think what you stated regarding `the mistake that We are all making` - words to that effect.

I also wanted to Explain further My `Beliefs` regarding the Gas ACS Scheme and its effect on the Registered Gas Engineer / Installer `Population`.

I was in no way trying to be Argumentative either - and I am `Guilty` of writing Posts that are VERY Long - I don`t do this because I particularly Enjoy Typing - as I can only Type with TWO Fingers - sometimes with only ONE ! - But as I am sure applies to many of Us I think of more details to write as I am Typing.

I was Pleased to read Your Reply to our Posts and as I wrote previously - I completely Agree with most of what You wrote.

Regards,

Chris

 

[ukiri]

Got to agree with the comments about the state of industry and level of incompetent people being let loose in sparking and plumbing/gas sectors. Recent thread of conversations on a large domestic job I was on recently about part l & p etc " I`ve swapped f****ing loads of boilers me and I`ve never lagged bin told to lag f****ng pipes inside a house its warm!! "