Heating systems and Gas- Electrical demarcation

[chris murphy]

"Hello sambotc",

I agree with all of Your Points - The 12 Week Courses to `Make` a Gas Installer are nothing short of an Insult to Gas Engineers / Installers who have `Correctly Qualified` and have YEARS of experience !

When taking My Gas ACS Re-Assessments on a 5 Yearly Basis I have been told by the College Tutors / Assessment Invigilators about People who have come for the Short Course Training & Assessment who did not even know how to use a Manometer correctly !

These are People who have HAD TO provide a `Portfolio of Gas Work Experience` - Supervised and Signed by a Registered GasSafe Engineer at the least - in order to even be allowed to take these Gas Training and Assessment Modules !

The Portfolio as You know has to cover ALL of the Aspects that they want to take Further Training and Assessment for - and should `Show` their Experience in these Aspects.

NOT being able to use a Manometer correctly SHOULD in My Opinion show that their Portfolio is Fraudulent ! - And Immediately Disbar them from taking the Training and Assessments at the College ! - BUT this is NOT what happened - When I Queried why this was I was told - `We CANNOT state that the Portfolio is obviously Fraudulent` - `So We CANNOT disbar them from taking the Course and Assessments`.

Your comment about Boiler / Gas Appliance Service and Repair being a completely different Task to Installation - with the DEFINITE requirement for having had Electrical Training and Fault Finding Training could not be more correct - I agree entirely - and especially as You stated with Condensing Boilers [and Combi`s] - It would be almost Impossible to Identify Faults without carrying out Electrical Testing of the Circuits and Components - NOT something that should EVER be even attempted without the relevant Training.


Regards,


Chris

 

[colshaws]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

 

[chris murphy]

Related to Chris's earlier post
It definitely IS the case that British Gas Training does include Electrical Modules - AS their Gas Engineers carry out a lot of Boiler and other Appliance Breakdowns as well as Electrical Works - they would definitely be well trained in the Electrical Aspects - But this would be British Gas Training people to carry out their Advertised Works as opposed to JUST Gas Fitting.
I recently changed a C.U. , after all testing I started to do functional testing and when replacing fuse in the boilere F.C.U the R.C.D tripped, double checked circuit upto F.C.U and all is o.k. The customer calls out Britisg Gas bacause they didnt want to pay me to find fault( homeserve insurance) and after hours of B.G blaming me and calling out a second engineer the pair of them finally changed the pump and guess what- no trip. All of there work was by means of replacing one part after another not by testing. So I cant see how their guys are trained on the electrical side of their boilers.

"Hello colshaws",

What You described is something that I have often seen or heard about - regarding the `Misdiagnosis` of a Fault on a Boiler.

The Problem seems to be that unless they have been specifically Trained on the Particular Boiler - Mistaking the possible CAUSES of a Fault seems to be Easy to do.

Although We might think that it SHOULD be Easy to Isolate a Fault by Electrical Testing of the Components and Wiring Circuits - A Knowledge of the `Chain of Operation` within the Boiler - the Operation of which part causes another to Operate - is obviously required - a lack of knowledge of this is what often causes a Customer to have to Pay for Unnecessary Parts !

Fault Diagnosis / `Chain of Operation` CAN be Complicated to REMEMBER - Although the Boiler Installation and Servicing Instructions SHOULD Always be left with the Appliance Owner / Householder - This is OFTEN an item that cannot be found to refer to.

In the case of a British Gas Engineer this should NOT present a Problem - As I believe that they carry Notebook Type Computers and can Access ANY Installation / Servicing Instructions [?]

Also there are obviously the GOOD Engineer and the `Not so Good`.


Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

 

[chris murphy]

Even though your experience leads you to think more gas fitters should undertake electrical training I am more inclined to think this is occurring more and more. If you look around where I live, Nottingham, there are more and more vans purporting heating, kitchen and electrical and these vans will have gas safe, niceic, NAPIT logos on. Just look at the british gas service vans and dthey have multi logos on them. My assessment with NAPIT was for multi disciplines and this will become far more prevelant in this climate and also a climate where the client wants more and more for their money.

"Hello sbrown2",

You are correct in what You wrote - Clients will DEFINITELY use Companies who offer Multi Trades and it will obviously be VERY Tempting for People to want to `Train Up` to be Legal / Registered in these Multi Disciplines.

BUT - Although I have a VERY High Opinion of My Own Expertise in Heating - Plumbing and Gas where I have Qualifications in all of these - I have `Learned` My Trades from an Apprentice Plumber [Including Gas Safety - Installation etc.] - Following on with Qualifications in Heating - ONC & HNC [Including some Gas Modules] and ALL of the Domestic Gas ACOPS and now the Gas ACS - These PLUS over 40 Years of experience in these Trades - NOT Trained in Multi Disciplines in perhaps 6 Months to a Year [?].

That is the Difference between a Professional Tradesman [or Woman] who has Years of experience in more than one Trade and someone who has `Learned` more than one Trade in less than a Year - Impossible in My Opinion ! - Or All of Us who have been through our Apprenticeships have wasted our Time ! - Which I do NOT Think.

I realise that My Trades are `Related Disciplines` which obviously `Go Together` and are often Taught Together - Not quite the same as perhaps Gas and Electrics or Plumbing and Electrics - regarding learning the Installation Requirements / Safety Regulations etc. of Different Trades.


What does the future hold with all of these Multi Discipline Operatives going to be launched into the Workplace ??


Regards,


Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

 

[chris murphy]

I do not work with Gas now. Although I have done in the past. As a factory multiskilled tech it has been expected of me in certain companies. But my view will generally be that my primary trade is as an electrician. But the knowledge elements I have picked up along the way have allowed me to dabble in the other trades and have knowledge elements in those other trades that asszist me in my own trade namely fault finding. I think this overlapping of trades will persist because of the severe financial pressures people are under. I know this shouldn't be an excuse for the lowering of standards but it is the reality. People want a decent standard of living and so they are widening their nets.

"Hello sbrown2",

Again I agree with You - From a Customers point of view it would be great to employ someone who can Legally carry out for example Plumbing - Gas and Electrical Works.

A person who is Registered with the necessary Competent Persons Schemes to enable the Notification / Certification of their Works in all of those Trades is obviously going to be in demand - as obviously the requirement for Certificates of Works carried out have become more widely known recently.

Even though the Home Information Packs have been scrapped - Certification of Building Works plus Gas - Electrical - Plumbing and Heating ARE becoming Well Known as being required regarding House Purchases.

I am always thinking of what Time Period would be required to Train someone for example in a Plumbing Apprenticeship - where Gas and Heating Systems are now included AND - Add the requirements of Full Electrical Training - All that is included in an Electrical Apprenticeship ??

After all I cannot imagine that there are Large Sections of what is learned during an Electrical Apprenticeship that could be correctly Discarded as `Not Necessary` - I would be sure that ALL that is Taught is Necessary.

Would there be People prepared to enter into perhaps a 6 Year [?] Apprenticeship - What would be available to Older People wanting to take this route - Only the `Fast Track` Method where it is Impossible to `Become` an Electrician / Gas Installer / Plumber with the Necessary Knowledge in these Trades in a Short Time !

What would the Customer be getting when using the Services of a Multi `Trades` Person from that route of Training ??

Regards,

Chris

 

[sbrown2]

I think differently, as I've now had a drink. But all of our trades are usually interlinked. I had preliminary training in hydraulics, pneumatics, machining (I think using engineering blue!), plumbing, and being a mining apprentice I should be aware of the dangers of gas. I think many people have gained this sort or variable experience, but I wonder whether they know the extents to where there knowledge goes. With my assessment on thursday and obviously your own experiences it is obvious that joining the schemes has a positive effect in as much as we demonstrate our competence in the various trades ( I actually struggled more in my own trade than the others I was assessed for).


Its not about the time period for training its about the ability to demonstrate competence. You have demonstrated this and as we all know there are many people who tout/e for business without demonstrating their competence.

 

[sambotc]

I think it comes down to the individual. As an example, how many times have you seen floorboards smashed to bits after an electrician/plumber has been in to put pipe/cable under floor? Basic skills, wouldn't even call it carpentry, just a bit of common sense and understanding of basic physics i;e if you push down in one spot too hard, something's going to break! Yet these people hold the relevent ticket to legally work on gas/electrics?

Is it bone idleness, or stupidity.. or both?

Maybe it's the fact we all want everything done for cheap which has caused the problems, cheap training, jobs chucked in as quickly as possible, everything needed to be done yesterday kind of attitude?

 

[sbrown2]

I will say I am/was rubbish in properties but I work with builder who's reputaton is in this trade. He may have less qualifications but he knows his stuff and together we can work through all of the competencies. In the domestics he wins, I'd like to think in the commercial and industrial I'd have a chance!!!!