Minor Works? Installation? Notifiable?

[optician]

Hi
I recently visited a property the was experiencing tripping of an Mcb when turning on a 3 kw hand wash appliance in a down stairs loo.
All earth cables present and correct, old wired board but with plug in MCB's No Rcd protection.
Some Numpty had wired the hand wash to the 6 amp alarm and bell circuit with 1mm 3 core cable.
So the MCB was doing its Job.

So i ran 2.5 cable from hand wash unit back to the board to a little used 16amp MCb.
Problem solved. All tests fine and Zs 0.26.

So Minor works certificate ? Installation Certificate? and is it Notifiable?

Any response is greatly appreciated, Thanks.

 

[Fox]

I read to understand that you connected the new cable into an existing circuit at the distribution board? Also does the room contain a bath or shower?

 

[optician]

No, its just a downstairs loo with hand basin, so not special location.
new cable to existing MCB.

 

[davesparks]

Have you installed a new circuit or have you altered an existing one?

 

[optician]

Altered existing circuit, spurred off existing MCB.
So Minor works, No Notification?

 

[Fox]

Yes, minor works, not notified.

 

[newtothis]

Happy to be proved wrong, on face value this seems pretty straight forward to me - it’s notifiable.

Different cable size selected.


It may raise the question whether it should have been notified prior to installation.

 

[Fox]

I wouldn't class this as a major alteration to an existing circuit. Op has wired the appliance in 2.5mm cable into an existing 16A circuit which is likely wired in existing 2.5mm cable - minor works for me and sod notification

 

[telectrix]

agree with fox here.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Very triggers broom replacing the cable and we're.in the db it goes to.
But just a spur off a existing circuit

Who the he'll installed this dryer in the first place, it could of never worked.

 

[newtothis]

Who the he'll installed this dryer in the first place, it could of never worked.

Agreed

 

[andyb]

I'd notify this, in my opinion it's a new circuit.
Not saying that's the definitive answer, just that for the sake of 5 minutes on a computer and a couple of quid I would.
If you had done exactly the same work and there had been a spare way at the cu you would have used that and not thought twice about it.

 

[DPG]

Good debate - I like threads like this. And at least they stay friendly (mostly) these days. Daz

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Can't be a new circuit, as he's connected it to an existing circuit.

 

[DPG]

It's only an existing MCB though. He's run a new cable. Daz

 

[Fox]

a little used 16amp

I assumed this to mean an MCB with some kind of load on it, therefore an extension to an existing circuit.

 

[DPG]

I assumed this to mean an MCB with some kind of load on it, therefore an extension to an existing circuit.

Good point. You could be right there.

 

[Fox]

Good point. You could be right there.

Who knows? I think it's a situation where common sense will prevail!

 

[professional]

FACT - An existing mcb is NOT a circuit, it is merely a circuit protective device.

FACT - The installation of a new, appropriately rated cable to the handwash unit is clearly a NEW CIRCUIT and is therefore notifiable.


Notification is a total farce BUT trying to convince yourselves that new installations are merely alterations is insulting to the trade.

If a job is notifiable and you you chose not to notify that is your choice ; but surely it is unfair to mislead less experienced forum members with the use of such laughable arguments?

 

[davesparks]

FACT - An existing mcb is NOT a circuit, it is merely a circuit protective device.

FACT - The installation of a new, appropriately rated cable to the handwash unit is clearly a NEW CIRCUIT and is therefore notifiable.

But all outgoing wiring connected to a single OCPD is a circuit as defined in bs7671
The installation of a second outgoing cable in to the OCPD of an existing circuit is an alteration to that circuit. However it may be very poor design and not compliant for other reasons

 

[Midwest]

New, alteration, addition 'circuit'. Definition; not existing before, to change or make different, added to or more.

A new circuit is just that; spare way, remove blank insert new ocpd, run new cable to new fcu etc. What if the existing cable had been damaged and replaced with a correctly sized cable? Alteration for me.

 

[Taylortwocities]

If we are going to delve into the regs to find ways round this; has nobody read 314 - Division of Installation?

Particularly 314.4 "…..each final circuit shall be connected to a separate way in a distribution board……"

This addition to the installation is a new final circuit, needs a new and separate way, separate CPD, notification and installation cert.

 

[andyb]

Before adding to an installation you must ascertain that the rating and condition of the existing installation is adequate for the addition.

This is a new circuit, however the existing consumer unit is not adequate in so much as there are no spare ways.
An answer to this is to fit a new smaller c/unit or change the existing c/unit.
Then you can install the new circuit and notify the job.

To wire the new circuit in parallel with an existing circuit and then call it an addition is a loophole.

I'm not saying that I would not do it, I would in all probability do exactly what the OP has done.
But having done that I would not then say it's not a new circuit 'nudge nudge wink wink' Phew, that saves me having to notify it.

Notify it, it's a new circuit that you have installed.

 

[Midwest]

Hmmm, just re-read the original post. Circuit has been re-connected to a different ocpd, its splitting hairs, still think its an alteration? Appendix 15 states 'an unfused spur may be connected to the origin of the circuit in the distribution board'.
Depends what 'little used' refers to?

 

[davesparks]

Hmmm, just re-read the original post. Circuit has been re-connected to a different ocpd, its splitting hairs, still think its an alteration? Appendix 15 states 'an unfused spur may be connected to the origin of the circuit in the distribution board'.
Depends what 'little used' refers to?

That is concerned with ring final circuits, hence uses the teen 'unfused spur'
What is being discussed here is a radial circuit

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Swinging the other way (Tele i know there is X-rated way of reading that)

I dont think it could be classed as a Alteration, as the thing never worked in the first place and never recorded.

So leave Addition as the next, an addition to a 16A MCB. The Circuit wasnt atteneded for this addition at all, not like addin on another light/socket. So would have to swing to it being a New Circuit.


What Happened to the MCB the old 'Alarm' Cable went in to? Could we just upgrade that to a correct size
and upgrade the cable to the correct side. but even doing that would mean New Circuit as it wasnt recorded in the first place, and never worked in the first place.


So swinging (Ding Dong) to it being a NEW CIRCUIT and needs EIC
The Minor Works Report gets miss used so much its hard to draw a line under it.

 

[Midwest]

That is concerned with ring final circuits, hence uses the teen 'unfused spur'
What is being discussed here is a radial circuit

Have a look at page 454 (BYB), half way down on the right hand side, i.e. Fig 15b - Radial final circuit arrangements

 

[davesparks]

Have a look at page 454 (BYB), half way down on the right hand side.

On then, at some point they've extended it to allow a spur to be taken from a 32A radial.

But my point is still the same, a radial circuit is not a spur

 

[Midwest]

And my point was; that the regs allow connecting a spur to a radial circuit at the distribution board. Not sure about connecting a 3kw load on a spur off a radial though.