Part P & the 17th Edition.

[professional]

So by dropping out of your relative scheme and saving £370, and breaking the law by not notifying labc, you will be able to drop your prices by so much that you will be able to undercut all the other law breakers out there.

I don't think so.

If paying a scam provider for membership brings no benefits whatsoever - why pay them?

I don't see your point, to be honest.

 

[malcolmsanford]

If paying a scam provider for membership brings no benefits whatsoever - why pay them?

I don't see your point, to be honest.

To comply with the law ...............if your part of a scheme then you can do notifiable work without contacting the local building authority. Once you have completed the work you notify your scheme who will then complete all the paperwork with the LBA and then issue the client the completed certificate.

If you not a member of a scheme then before you can start any notifiable work it is the onus of the home owner to notify the LBA of what work is being done and the LBA will issure you warrnet to start the work. Depending on who is performing the work ie DIY'er or a qualified electrician a scale of charges will be meted out by the LBA.

 

[Andrewered]

I had the same experience, my local LABC said it took 6 weeks for the NICEIC to notify them of my work,
now I just send builing control my certs by email, (saves me £1.50)

On topic I would ditch part "pee" altogether, when your undercut by every tom dick & harry & pay
over £3000 to middlemen before the work comes in I can honestly say part "p" is a massive failure (does anyone actually police it !!)

Almost just let it be

 

[sparks72]

Almost just let it be

???????

Let what be?, Part P?

Nope, In my very own experience it doesn't work, again I find myself clearing up other people's electrical mess while they walk away scott free, it doesn't annoy me at all because I'm sure a lot of the folk here have clearing up other peoples mess years before Part P was forced upon us, & it won't stop whatever laws are put in place.

 

[jonesyc894]

Many excuses for being stupid but, if I am joined to a scheme do I still need to be part P or still contact LABC?

 

[pushrod]

Many excuses for being stupid but, if I am joined to a scheme do I still need to be part P or still contact LABC?

If you have been accepted onto a scheme you are effectively part p compliant and your scheme provider would then notify the LABC , for a small fee, on your behalf

 

[jonesyc894]

Cheers pushrod, clears alot up for me and makes life a lot easier.

 

[professional]

If you have been accepted onto a scheme you are effectively part p compliant and your scheme provider would then notify the LABC , for a small fee, on your behalf

If you are accepted onto a Scheme you have been deemed competent and can self-certify - nothing more.

You can go direct to LABC and comply with Part P.

It must be remembered that it is ONLY the work carried out that must comply with Part P of the building regs.

 

[Electricalserv]

If you are accepted onto a Scheme you have been deemed competent and can self-certify - nothing more.

You can go direct to LABC and comply with Part P.

It must be remembered that it is ONLY the work carried out that must comply with Part P of the building regs.

But Prof, If you are registered with a scheme, it gives customers a little more faith in you and also its cheaper on your behalf to be in the scheme.

For me its better to be in a club than not.

 

[sparks72]

If you are accepted onto a Scheme you have been deemed competent and can self-certify - nothing more.

From some of the work I've seen I would say that's debatable, surely scheme providers wouldn't turn a blind eye to some of the competent persons mistakes for the money........would they. :skep:

 

[sparks72]

But Prof, If you are registered with a scheme, it gives customers a little more faith in you and also its cheaper on your behalf to be in the scheme.

For me its better to be in a club than not.

From my experience your workmanship is what makes your reputation, I was with a scheme provider for 7 years, only once did I get a contract for being in a scheme, all my other work has been through recommendations.

 

[professional]

From some of the work I've seen I would say that's debatable, surely scheme providers wouldn't turn a blind eye to some of the competent persons mistakes for the money........would they. :skep:

They would and do as a matter of routine.

We are all well aware of the abysmal standard of work carried out by some "competent" persons - yet this is not reflected in the number of complaints.

What you have to remember is that the complaints process that the the Scams operate is DESIGNED to ensure that the number of complaints that are upheld is kept to a minimum (remember, the Scams write their own complaints procedures) - the fact that the Schemes join UKAS (another membership scam) and then ignore the rules that don`t suit may have something to do with this situation.



Did you know that there is NO EXTERNAL, INDEPENDENT MONITORING of the actual standard of work carried out by scam members i.e. an independent assessment of individuals and the work they carry out?

Every Scam operator carries out it`s own assessments which does NOT comply with UKAS guidelines - this is done because assessments make ALOT of money, and they don`t want to run the risk of such practices coming under external scrutiny.

The industry finds it more convenient to carry out yet more box-ticking exercises from a distance because they know full well what they would find in the field.

I have heard the same old excuses for so long now "don`t you think it is better to have these incompetents inside the Scheme,s (i.e. where we can make money out of them) where they can be policed (they are not anyway) , than outside where they cannot?(where they would be outside our sphere of financial influence)".

It is no good fooling ourselves - the fraud is there for all who wish to see ....

 

[Dimebag213]

The way forward with the part p is to rip it up and burn it... Its a complete failuire as the competent persons scheme allows some one with relatively little experience pass a 17th ed course... Buy test equipment regs and guidance notes and this makes them competent? For some who have worked in the trade this is ideal .... But for someone blagging.... Its just as bad as a cowboy doing the work..... Are any scheme providers going to turn down all that revenue??? They are basically cash cows. Ban the sale of all electrical equipment to all non competent sparks end of story... But that will not happen either!???

 

[sliemasteve]

In this and many other commenteries there is a focus of the failures of others to follow the rules relating to electrical practice and that some of the rules are defective and enforcement is inadequate.


If you are to focus on the necessity to abide by the rules then in order to avoid hypocrisy I presume you who criticise will be diligent in ensuring every cash payment you receive is recorded for tax purposes, that you carefully separate and pay out of your earnings the equipment you install in your own home, that you drive within the speed limit, when required you use scaffold rather than a ladder, you have taken the trouble to be fully conversant with the building regs and vat legislation to the extent that it your business is required, that your vehicle is not only MOTed but safe. It goes without saying that you will never have tasted cannabis or taken hard drugs or turn up for electrical installation work hung over or too ill to do the job properly


In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation.

The thing about rules is to make it as simple as possible once you are working to simple rules there are no excuses for anything less than average performance.

Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards.

I could go on but I sense I am becoming boring but I thoroughly enjoy reading stuff on this forum.

 

[Webbie]

There is also no deterant for the homeowner/ client! If they can get it cheaper from a non registered electrician they don't seem to care about 'part p'

 

[Big n Daft]

"If you are to focus on the necessity to abide by the rules then in order to avoid hypocrisy I presume you who criticise will be diligent in ensuring every cash payment you receive is recorded for tax purposes, that you carefully separate and pay out of your earnings the equipment you install in your own home, that you drive within the speed limit, when required you use scaffold rather than a ladder, you have taken the trouble to be fully conversant with the building regs and vat legislation to the extent that it your business is required, that your vehicle is not only MOTed but safe. It goes without saying that you will never have tasted cannabis or taken hard drugs or turn up for electrical installation work hung over or too ill to do the job properly


In my opinion it is impossible for a young person to start a business and not break the rules in some way by both accident and design. In my observations most drivers exceed the speed limit they and we are rule breakers, sometimes there is the added possibility of our rule breaking putting ourselves and others in danger. If you are a rule breaker in some area of human endevor temper your indignation at fellow rule breakers who happen to exercise their deficiencies in electrical installation"

What a load of complete and utter tosh!!!

"Is it a requirement that you have to be an intellectual giant to understand the rules of electrical installation in a domestic situation for example? Well, you don't need to be but the 17th edition is a serious attempt at straining the average persons understanding of the English language. I consider it one of the most useless docuements known to man. Considering we have millions of houses in the UK any industry with a modicum of collective intelligence would have the rules for house wiring presented in a format written specific to housing instead of the present universal document written to test our understanding of language rather than to clearly inform us of electrical standards."
Glad we got to bit of common sense in the end, it was almost worth it

 

[mattsavill]

In my opinion Part P is an industry money making scam, I went to college part time for 10 years completing C&G 236 pt's 1, 2 and c course 2391 pat testing and went on to get an ONC and HNC in electrical engineering, and i am a senior member of my firms electrical organisation, I also used to be self employed working for myself at the weekends to make a bit extra, and then part P came in, and took away my capability of earning extra money without being scammed yearly for a few hundred pounds to be assessed by somebody less qualified and less competant than me. I agree that there are cowboys out there but Part P has make the cowboys cheaper, I am no longer self employed as it is not worth the hassle.

If the Government want people to get of there backsides and stop scrouging from the tax payers they need to make things easier.

 

[professional]

If the Government want people to get of there backsides and stop scrouging from the tax payers they need to make things easier.

I agree entirely - an individual licensing system would be easy and would afford assurance to the householder that the INDIVIDUAL entering their premises was actually competent - but that would require people to be trained and experienced, which is far less lucrative than the farce that we are currently enduring.:wink_smile:

 

[PJE]

Hi,

I have been a member of this forum since March 12[SUP]th[/SUP] 2011 and have regularly visited since then and have always enjoyed reading the various threads and feel there are some really decent people on here trying to make an honest living in the face of never ending barriers in front of them.

Don’t know if this is the right place to post this but as this thread concerns Part P and 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs thought I would ask anyway.

Just wondering if any of you lads can give me any advice.

Up until 2000 I was employed as an Electrician in the electrical contracting industry ( building sites, Industrial, Domestic etc ). I had all the qualifications req up to that point which were 16th edition C&G etc.

At that point I left the industry to work in newspaper printing as the lure of sick pay and company pension scheme amongst other things became attractive especially as I was over 40rs old and not getting any younger.

However all good things come to an end and next year in keeping with most things in this country there will be major redundancy’s at the plant I work at.

I may or may not be chosen for redundancy but rather than take a chance and just wait to see if the dreaded letter dropps through my door I thought it best to try and safe guard myself by finding out what would be involved in getting back up to speed with the electrical side of things again.

During the time I have been away from our industry I have still done small jobs domestically for family and friends and tried to keep up with the changes such as Part P and the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs.

My question is if I was to start up again albeit on a self employed part time basis what is my best route to follow.
regarding courses on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition regs and Part P etc to get back up to speed.

What are the beat courses I could look at to achieve this.

If any one could offer any advice I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Kind regards,

Phil.

 

[malcolmsanford]

PJE as you have "kept your hand in" basically all you really need is the 17th edition update. As you took the 16th I assume before 2001 you will need to do the complete 3 day course, and chances are your not going to get one of these before the amendment kicks in now, so I would personally wait until the new year and do the C&G 2382-12.

As for the Part P regulations I would recommend this book

Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations Approved Document P, Electrical Safety in Dwellings: Amazon.co.uk: Books

It covers pretty much everything you need to know and is quite a good guide